Model baggage compartment weight limit (AFM discussion)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I'm just noticing for the first time that the '48 and A models have a 100lb restriction in the baggage compartment while the B model has a limit of 120lbs. Wonder how many wrong decals have been replaced on the early models?

[ronjenx]

Where did you find the 100 lbs. figure?

The only ones I can find say 120 lbs.

TCDS A-799
170A Flight Manual Rev. A

[lowNslow]

Type Certificate says 120 lbs,. for '48 170.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Karl, the AFM for the '48 and the A model, that is two different versions of AFM, say 100lbs. I didn't confirm it with the TCDS. So either I've found a typo in the AFMs or I've found a typo in the TCDS.

This AFM is dated Feb 12, 1948 and in parenthesis if says (tentative)

This 170 AFM is dated Feb 12, 1948

This A model AFM is dated Dec 3 1948

This 170 rev A AFM is dated Feb 13 1948. Hard to tell but I have the original and it says 120lb

Hmmmmm. So it looks like I have '48 AFMs that say both 100lbs and 120lbs and I have at least one A model AFM that says 100lbs. Thinking the AFMs are wrong.

Anyone have a '48 with what they know has an original decal on the baggage compartment? What does it say?

[ronjenx]

The 170A Flight manual you quoted has a REV. A ( DEC 3, 1948) that states 120 lbs.

You posted a 170 AFM, and a 170 rev A AFM.
I would think only the rev A carries any authority.

The TCDS A-799 says 120 lbs. for all three 170 models.

[GAHorn]

AFMs are approved documents.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The 170A Flight manual you quoted has a REV. A ( DEC 3, 1948) that states 120 lbs.

You posted a 170 AFM, and a 170 rev A AFM.
I would think only the rev A carries any authority.

The TCDS A-799 says 120 lbs. for all three 170 models.

Ron do you have a copy of that 170A AFM you could send for my collection. I don't have that version. The only version of 170 or 170A AFM I have that states 120 lbs is dated Dec 3, 1948 and is for a 170 and is rev A. Later AFMs for the 170A have 170A specifically at the top and I'm showing one of those that says 100lbs.

For my Cessna 170A serial 18833 I have two original AFMs issued by Cessna. The first issued with the aircraft when it was sold is the later version specifically for a 170A on the top and it says 100lbs.. The second and last AFM issued by Cessna specifically for my aircraft is the earlier version with only says 170 at the top (not 170A) and it says 100lbs. So while you might think a rev A superceded earlier revisions, in practice it didn't and if it did would require all owners to get the latest issue. Most 170 owners don't even know they need this AFM let alone the latest one and what the latest one might be.

How many revisions or versions of the AFM are there? I have a collection of about 5 or 6 different ones.

AFMs are approved documents.

So the question would be George, which approved document is MORE approved?

[GAHorn]

...So the question would be George, which approved document is MORE approved?

The FAA website library has the latest (as well as the historical) Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS):
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enFrameSet

The FAA may amend a type certificate when the holder of the type certificate receives FAA approval to modify an aircraft design from its original design. An amended type certificate approves not only the modification, but also how that modification affects the original design.

The current TCDS for all models Cessna 170 is Revision 54, dated 11/5/2004, found at:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... /A-799.pdf

The TCDS specifies WHICH specific AFM must be aboard the aircraft, depending upon aircraft equipment list and mod status. Each specific AFM is identified by DATE. The AFM is supplied by the TCDS holder (Cessna) and is approved by FAA. (Copies may also be obtained at reduced cost for most 170-aircraft by 170 Assoc'n Members from TIC170A.)

The TCDS also specifies the REQUIRED EQUIPMENT which must be aboard the aircraft. Those items are numbered, and the item numbers are specified toward the end of the entire TCDS document. Item 402(a) in the TCDS is the "Approved Airplane Flight Manual and pertinent revisions applicable to the particular model, serial number, and landing gear installation"
Based upon additional equipment and/or modification status, the original document may have amended/revised AFM, such as for a Koppers Propellor, or a Lear autopilot, Franklin engine, etc.. IN FACT, it may be required to have MORE THAN ONE AFM aboard, such as in the case of 170A with skis, which will require at least TWO AFMs to be on board (402 (a), AND (e) or (d) which are further identified by DATE.)

Although the TCDS does specify that ALL MODELS of 170, 170A, and 170B ... have a MAXIMUM BAGGAGE capacity of 120 lbs.... a particular AFM may reduce (but not increase) that maximum capacity. If floats or engine or autopilot modifications introduce peculiarities that require a reduction of the original maximum of 120 to 100 lbs, and if that particular required AFM so states that.... then the reduction is mandatory....and the REQUIRED EQUIPMENT and/or placards will also specify which baggage compartment placard is correct for that aircraft.

In other words, the TCDS specifes the ORIGINAL and the AFM may modify....and therefore they ...SHOULD... not conflict when mod status and aircraft equipment list/mod status is considered.

Hope this helps.

[n2582d]

Although the TCDS does specify that ALL MODELS of 170, 170A, and 170B ... have a MAXIMUM BAGGAGE capacity of 120 lbs.... a particular AFM may reduce (but not increase) that maximum capacity. If floats or engine or autopilot modifications introduce peculiarities that require a reduction of the original maximum of 120 to 100 lbs, and if that particular required AFM so states that.... then the reduction is mandatory....and the REQUIRED EQUIPMENT and/or placards will also specify which baggage compartment placard is correct for that aircraft.

A good example is the following required placard as shown in the Javelin flight manual supplement.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well George you've made that clear as mud. The TCDS isn't specific as to what might be the latest version of the applicable AFM and I didn't expect it to.

But what I think you said was despite what the TCDS sheet says, if we find an applicable AFM with a limit less than the TCDS then the AFM rules. I would have to agree.

And following that logic then if we can't find an applicable AFM for a 170A that either has no baggage limit or one higher than the one I have with a limit of 100lb, then the limit for baggage in a 170A is 100lbs. Doesn't matter that we have an applicable AFM for a 170 and a 170B which has a baggage limit of 120lbs.

Now all we have to figure out is, in my aircrafts case, Cessna issued an older AFM version than the first issued for the aircraft so despite its an earlier version, does it still apply? After all it was the last AFM issued for that aircraft by the manufacturer. Would be a very interesting NTSB hearing should the FAA violate someone and they insist on due process.

[ronjenx]

The 170A Flight manual you quoted has a REV. A ( DEC 3, 1948) that states 120 lbs.

You posted a 170 AFM, and a 170 rev A AFM.
I would think only the rev A carries any authority.

The TCDS A-799 says 120 lbs. for all three 170 models.

Ron do you have a copy of that 170A AFM you could send for my collection. I don't have that version. The only version of 170 or 170A AFM I have that states 120 lbs is dated Dec 3, 1948 and is for a 170 and is rev A. Later AFMs for the 170A have 170A specifically at the top and I'm showing one of those that says 100lbs.

For my Cessna 170A serial 18833 I have two original AFMs issued by Cessna. The first issued with the aircraft when it was sold is the later version specifically for a 170A on the top and it says 100lbs.. The second and last AFM issued by Cessna specifically for my aircraft is the earlier version with only says 170 at the top (not 170A) and it says 100lbs. So while you might think a rev A superceded earlier revisions, in practice it didn't and if it did would require all owners to get the latest issue. Most 170 owners don't even know they need this AFM let alone the latest one and what the latest one might be.

How many revisions or versions of the AFM are there? I have a collection of about 5 or 6 different ones.

AFMs are approved documents.

So the question would be George, which approved document is MORE approved?

I sent you the 170A rev.A AFM for your collection. Check your e-mail.
It states the placard should read Max. Baggage 120 lbs., etc.

It appears to have come out soon after the original, as did the 170 AFM rev. A, after its original.

I could be wrong, but it all seems pretty clear to me: All three Landplane 170 models' baggage placards should read 120 lbs.

[GAHorn]

Well George you've made that clear as mud. The TCDS isn't specific as to what might be the latest version of the applicable AFM and I didn't expect it to....

I tried to make it clear. Let me try again:

The TCDS tells you which AFM must accompany your airplane. The producer of the AFM (Cessna) tells you which is the latest revision of that AFM.

Example: We've already seen that the original 170A AFM (dated Dec 3, 1948, but approved Dec 15, 1948) was issued Rev "A" in Aug 30, 1949....EVEN THO' it retains the "issue date" of Dec 3, 1948. Therefore Rev "A" supercedes the original.

As for how this affects the majority of our airplanes:
170's have 100 lb bagg limit
170A and B have 120 bagg limit

I speculate that the lack of dorsal fairing on the 170 affected inadvertent spin characteristics and it's inclusion on later aircraft allowed the increase.

[ronjenx]

Well George you've made that clear as mud. The TCDS isn't specific as to what might be the latest version of the applicable AFM and I didn't expect it to....

I tried to make it clear. Let me try again:

The TCDS tells you which AFM must accompany your airplane. The producer of the AFM (Cessna) tells you which is the latest revision of that AFM.

Example: We've already seen that the original 170A AFM (dated Dec 3, 1948, but approved Dec 15, 1948) was issued Rev "A" in Aug 30, 1949....EVEN THO' it retains the "issue date" of Dec 3, 1948. Therefore Rev "A" supercedes the original.

As for how this affects the majority of our airplanes:
170's have 100 lb bagg limit
170A and B have 120 bagg limit

I speculate that the lack of dorsal fairing on the 170 affected inadvertent spin characteristics and it's inclusion on later aircraft allowed the increase.

Well, the 170 AFM, rev A, that Bruce posted, shows 120 lbs.

[GAHorn]

[...Well, the 170 AFM, rev A, that Bruce posted, shows 120 lbs.

Well..this is just going around full-circle. That's already been pointed out and discussed.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

OK just to clear things up for future reference.

I now have in my possession an AFM for the 170 dated February 12, 1948 Rev A which shows 120lbs for the baggage compartment.
I now have in my possession an AFM for the 170A dated Dec 3, 1948 Rev A which shows 120lbs for the baggage compartment.
I now have in my possession an AFM for the 170B dated June 26, 1950 which shows 120lbs for the baggage compartment.
(BTW I always had these, just got confused what I had. Thanks Ron for sending another copy)

So all models can have 120lbs in the baggage compartment so long as there are no other restrictions. But wasn't this discussion fun.

BTW I would think that there would be a newer AFM for the 170B after the 10 degree flap setting was added. And I'm always open to receiving AFM supplements. We could use on for all models on skis and the '48 and A model Seaplane