My (only) Navcom is out of the airplane for work. Won't be done for three weeks.
Avionics guy suggests flying with a hand-held (no spare available)
I don't think this is legal.
It's not really a question of whether the hand-held is legal, it's whether or not the airplane is airworthy with the radio out.
OK, all you legal-eaqles, waddayathink?
Legal airworthiness Q?
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
paperwork
It might depend on how it was removed...is the tray in place with no exposed wiring? Are you flying out of an airport that requires a radio? Are you going to fly "IFR"?
For a weekend jaunt around the countryside VFR, I can't see any inspector giving you grief. In fact using a backup handheld radio is doing the responsible thing...
Would it be legal to fly if it didn't work, and was in the panel as a dead weight?
These questions are minor compared to many major undocumented mod's done to keep 50+ year old aircraft flying...
I wouldn't lose any sleep over that one, but it is your call, you are the "Captain".
I would probably check the range and quality during the day, before any night flight, where the radio is more critical.
Cheers Eric
For a weekend jaunt around the countryside VFR, I can't see any inspector giving you grief. In fact using a backup handheld radio is doing the responsible thing...
Would it be legal to fly if it didn't work, and was in the panel as a dead weight?
These questions are minor compared to many major undocumented mod's done to keep 50+ year old aircraft flying...
I wouldn't lose any sleep over that one, but it is your call, you are the "Captain".
I would probably check the range and quality during the day, before any night flight, where the radio is more critical.
Cheers Eric
That's what I said....... I think it is pretty silly to make a big deal about it. It is going right back in. Put a pound in the panel and don't change the weight and bal........... Just make a log book entry that it was removed. What if you had two com's and took one out? It would be a sad day for the FAA, if an inspector took the time to write this up . But there are inspectors out there that think it is there job to run Aviation into the ground. In the name of Safety............ sighIceman07 wrote:mit wrote:log book entry and weight and balance. Why wouldn't it be legal? Don't have to have one.
Weight and Balance is why I don't think it's legal. When you add avioinics, the W&B has to be re-calculated. If you take it out, the W&B is now not correct.
Tim
You didn't say how heavy the radio was, but the average unit is so light and so close to the CG that the removal on a temporary basis is almost too insignificant to warrant a CG correction. A log book entry, yes.
I'm not saying that this is not mathematically possible to compute, but I'll damned if it would noticeably affect the flight characteristics of an airplane.
I am, of course, assuming we are talking about a solid state type comm or comm-nav radio mounted in the instrument panel of a Cessna 170.
I'm not saying that this is not mathematically possible to compute, but I'll damned if it would noticeably affect the flight characteristics of an airplane.
I am, of course, assuming we are talking about a solid state type comm or comm-nav radio mounted in the instrument panel of a Cessna 170.
BL
Radios are not required. One of the best things my instructor did was send me out without a radio for pattern work. This was at the busiest non-towered airport in California. As a student pilot it was pretty scary. It's a real confidence builder and really makes you do what you should be doing all the time.... keeping your head on a swivel. BTW, the instructor was the local Designated Examiner, not some hotshot kid. I have had a couple of radio failures, and it is good to know that it's a non-event, even at a towered airport
Technically you may need a weight and balance, but I wouldn't worry about it. Ask your radio guy to make a logbook entry that says something like "Acme Navcom removed for repair".
I have lot's of friends with Cubs and Champs and they all use handheld's. They work great. Ask the Radio guy if it's easy to hook up the handheld to the external antenna and it will work even better.
Technically you may need a weight and balance, but I wouldn't worry about it. Ask your radio guy to make a logbook entry that says something like "Acme Navcom removed for repair".
I have lot's of friends with Cubs and Champs and they all use handheld's. They work great. Ask the Radio guy if it's easy to hook up the handheld to the external antenna and it will work even better.
John
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
!: opperitave word (should) 
I'm sure that some one will question my post! 
Technically, unless you have a MEL (Minimum Equipment List) different than the MMEL* (Master Minimum Equipment List kept for all single-engine aircraft) that is approved by the feds which allows the removal of the device...it must be operational on your airplane for it to be considered airworthy. The simple solution in this case is to have your avionics shop log the equipment OFF the airframe and work out a wt/bal and a log entry, update the equipment list.
When the radio is re-installed....log it back on.
*-(I have to admit, I haven't seen the MMEL lately and don't recall ...if it allows/under what conditions it allows.... the airplane to be operated with the radio inop/removed.... but I feel pretty confident that even if the MMEL allows the radio to be inop (probably does), ...if the radio is actually removed, that the equip/list and the wt/bal must reflect that change.)
In other words, Tim is correct. Do a wt/bal and log it.
When the radio is re-installed....log it back on.
*-(I have to admit, I haven't seen the MMEL lately and don't recall ...if it allows/under what conditions it allows.... the airplane to be operated with the radio inop/removed.... but I feel pretty confident that even if the MMEL allows the radio to be inop (probably does), ...if the radio is actually removed, that the equip/list and the wt/bal must reflect that change.)
In other words, Tim is correct. Do a wt/bal and log it.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Technically, unless you have a MEL (Minimum Equipment List) different than the MMEL* (Master Minimum Equipment List kept for all single-engine aircraft) that is approved by the feds which allows the removal of the device...it must be operational on your airplane for it to be considered airworthy. The simple solution in this case is to have your avionics shop log the equipment OFF the airframe and work out a wt/bal and a log entry, update the equipment list.
When the radio is re-installed....log it back on.
*-(I have to admit, I haven't seen the MMEL lately and don't recall ...if it allows/under what conditions it allows.... the airplane to be operated with the radio inop/removed.... but I feel pretty confident that even if the MMEL allows the radio to be inop (probably does), ...if the radio is actually removed, that the equip/list and the wt/bal must reflect that change.)
In other words, Tim is correct. Do a wt/bal and log it...and don't undertake any operations which require the equipment.
As an aside: It's unlikely any fed would take an interest in an airplane operating with an inop nav/com in an area where no radio is required, UNLESS..... he happened to notice a blank-spot in the panel where clearly something that used to be there is now missing! He would then VERY LIKELY take an interest. Play it safe. Log it off the airplane's equipment list and ...if possible...install a blanking-plate/cover to close the hole until your radio is re-installed. My dos centavos.
When the radio is re-installed....log it back on.
*-(I have to admit, I haven't seen the MMEL lately and don't recall ...if it allows/under what conditions it allows.... the airplane to be operated with the radio inop/removed.... but I feel pretty confident that even if the MMEL allows the radio to be inop (probably does), ...if the radio is actually removed, that the equip/list and the wt/bal must reflect that change.)
In other words, Tim is correct. Do a wt/bal and log it...and don't undertake any operations which require the equipment.
As an aside: It's unlikely any fed would take an interest in an airplane operating with an inop nav/com in an area where no radio is required, UNLESS..... he happened to notice a blank-spot in the panel where clearly something that used to be there is now missing! He would then VERY LIKELY take an interest. Play it safe. Log it off the airplane's equipment list and ...if possible...install a blanking-plate/cover to close the hole until your radio is re-installed. My dos centavos.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.