Aftermarket combustion heater possibly available

futr_alaskaflyer · Post by **futr_alaskaflyer** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:29 pm

In another thread we were discussing (well, I was whining and others were trying to help

) cabin heating in various models.

blueldr wrote:I don't think it makes a tinkers dam which C-170 you are flying. In the Alaska interior winter the heater is not going to be enough.---- with the possible exception of the optional cumbustion cabin heater under the back seat.

Well, I'm gonna hold your feet to the fire on this one - no pun intended

I just got off the phone with C & D Associates in Buchanan, Michigan. They manufacture and sell PMA'd (or STC'd whichever the case may be) replacements for combustion heaters such as janitrol, southwind etc. The nice saleswoman I talked to seemed to think that installing a kit in a 170 would be no problem, based on the fact that a combustion heater was on the TCDS originally, and if not they probably have a STC anyway, but I am supposed to get a call from a technician tomorrow to talk more about legalities and other specifics. It would be installed under the rear seat, with an appropriately sized hole cut in the deck to accomodate it and a line run to what I assume would be the right fuel tank. Seems like a good option for those who are willing to trade a little weight and fuel for comfort. The A model I'm looking at is unpainted, so maybe I can justify the extra - what - 15 lbs or so - a little easier?

Heater with full installation kit would be about $3600 not including installation - I had to talk them down to that price though

The cost hurts a little (plus a 1/2 to 3/4 day of labor to install) but it isn't completely unreasonable I suppose.

I'll post an update in case anyone else is interested.

Jr.CubBuilder · Post by **Jr.CubBuilder** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:40 am

Where does the exhaust route out of the heater?

futr_alaskaflyer · Post by **futr_alaskaflyer** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:02 am

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Where does the exhaust route out of the heater?

Hmmm...good question. Well, lets see...looking at the one photo I have it seems as though the chimney drops straight down out of the combustion chamber and is vented out the bottom of the fuselage. The tech from the company is supposed to send me installation photos from a Cessna they did a while back, maybe (hopefully) some drawings too.

I can't post the photo from work (LOL! Getting a lot of work done aren't I?) but when I get home I will capture a screenshot of the Flash image and post it.

Oops, I thought I posted the website last time

http://www.aircraftheater.com/index.php

Edit: I'm thinking their estimate of 1/2 - 3/4 day labor is a bit ambitious, looking at the design, but maybe they mean in their shop in Michigan where it might be reasonably presumed it would go much faster.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:56 am

My '52 model had a factory combustion heater installed, but removed long before I acquired the airplane.
There was a quite large hole cut in the right side floor under the rear seat.
There was a hole about two inched in diameter cut through the bottom right belly skin for the exhaust. The fuel to the heater was teed off of the left wing fuel line about ten inches before the selector valve.
All of this had been removed and patched when I acquired the plane.

futr_alaskaflyer · Post by **futr_alaskaflyer** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:43 am

Good info, thanks! One would certainly be "committing" with such a large hole in the floor.

Here is the one photo I "stole" from the website, I am looking forward to the photos from the shop.

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:41 pm

Hmmmn. The original Stewart-Warner (SouthWind) Model 979-B-1 had it's combustion blower mounted on the side.
I wonder if the CD version, with it's blower mounted/re-oriented on top, will clear the back seat frame.

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:22 pm

gahorn wrote:Hmmmn. The original Stewart-Warner (SouthWind) Model 979-B-1 had it's combustion blower mounted on the side.
I wonder if the CD version, with it's blower mounted/re-oriented on top, will clear the back seat frame.

Looking at C&D's website, they recommend a model CD11214-1 for the 170B, but there is no image illustrating that model. It may be that the picture above is of a heater for a different application.

I also note that although they say that this heater is applicable to the 170B, I see no claim of a PMA or an STC. If it is PMA'd or STC'd they need to say so in their advertising.

Miles

futr_alaskaflyer · Post by **futr_alaskaflyer** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:14 pm

I realize now that picture may not be the same model designed for the Cessna.

Here are photos I received from a technician today, showing an install in a Cessna.

She also told me that in her opinion installs of the full kit in an aircraft that has never had a combustion heater would take about 12 hours, not 4-8.

The second photo shows that three holes must be cut in the skin

- one each for the exhaust, drain, and combustion air inlet.

As for the legalities, here's her email in part:

"Good Morning,

The original Cessna parts manual offered a South Wind heater package for installation from the factory. Our C&D replaces this heater. This heater kit is approved by way of TSO-C20, STC & PMA. Installation for this kit takes about 12 hours. This kit comes complete with the heater, fuel pump, blower assembly, rotary switch, thermostat, ignition unit, ignition mount, plenum, drain hose, fuel hose, mounting brackets, clamps, sceet & hoses and complete installation instructions."

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:26 pm

Interesting! I'd never given it much thought before, but I didn't realize the heater wouldn't fit completely under the floor.

How about some sort of adapter and flexible ducting out the door or window so you could use it for engine pre-heat?

Miles

Bill Hart · Post by **Bill Hart** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:07 pm

IMHOâ€¦..You really have got to want some heat to put one of these things in a small airplane. If youâ€™ve ever had a fire in the cockpit you would probably re think this install.

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:47 am

Bill Hart wrote:IMHOâ€¦..You really have got to want some heat to put one of these things in a small airplane. If youâ€™ve ever had a fire in the cockpit you would probably re think this install.

At a MINIMUM, have it pressure checked at the beginning of the season before you start using it and at every annual. Hopefully there is a comprehensive list of checks in the continuing airworthiness instructions. Dad has one in his 310, and keeps a very close eye on it. As far as I know, it's the only source of cabin heat in the airplane. His biggest fear is a cracked heat exchanger letting carbon monoxide into the cockpit. Of course, a large enough crack would also be a fire hazard. His has failed pressure check and required repair at least once in 14+ years.

Miles

Bill Hart · Post by **Bill Hart** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:05 am

Dad has one in his 310

Ask him what is involved with the AD's on it?

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:10 am

Bill Hart wrote:
Dad has one in his 310
Ask him what is involved with the AD's on it?

A quick search of the FAA site shows one AD on the Southwind heater (can be installed in any category of aircraft):

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... south,wind

which addresses inspection of the heater and mandates overhaul every 1000 hours.

There are two on the Janitrol heater (can be installed in C-310's, among others, C-170 isn't listed):

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... t=96-20-07

and

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... t=janitrol

which both address inspections various components of the heater.

The next time I talk to dad I'll ask him about if there are any others.

Miles

LEA · Post by **LEA** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:55 am

Gentlemen ;
All cessna 190 & 195 Aircraft were all equiped with Stewart Warner gasoline heaters. If there is one of these aircraft located near you
a visual inspection will reveal the location and necessary modification to the fuselage deck to provide adaquate clearance for the rear seat.
It would be advantageous to talk with the owner for his comments about
safety features built into the system ,etc.
BOB

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:53 am

While very similar, in comparing the IPC illustrations versus this thread's illustrations, there are differences in this installation and the originals by Cessna. In a B-model, the original S/W 979-B-1 heater was also half-buried in the floor,... but the heater itself was slightly different than the CD PMA'd version (as relates to blower arrangement, etc.), and the air distribution also included some deflectors not present in this CD install. The CD installation also is different in order to accomodate that blower difference (and other minor differences.)
Reading between the lines, it appears that CD has mfr'd the heater under PMA, but makes the install under STC ... (not type certificate approval, in order to accomodate the differences noted.) Not implying I have any technical knowlege of this matter....only discussing differences I've noted in the illustrations.
The 170A IPC shows the gasoline heater under the rear seat, but the Owners Manual shows it installed thru the firewall.