New Tachometer

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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cessna170bdriver
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New Tachometer

Post by cessna170bdriver »

I am planning to replace my recording tachometer (originally installed at about 265 hours total time) with a new one as part of my current overhaul project. The tach in the airplane is accurate in the cruise range, but has always had about a 50 RPM "waver", which didn't improve with a new cable. Hopefully, a new tach will solve the problem, and now seems like a good time since (for this overhaul at least) the tach will display time since overhaul.

From post http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/posting.php ... te&p=10189 back in January of 2004:
gahorn wrote:...Aircraft Spruce (ph# 877-477-7823) PN 10-24623 (Mitchel PN D1-112-5023, old AC PN RT-7) for $169.
At http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/i ... _tachs.php I see that the RT-7 is the one Spruce recommends for the 170, but I notice that the RPM for accurate recording is 2300. Would the RT-17 (2400 RPM) be a better choice, since our recommended cruise RPM is 2450? There is no difference in the price.

Also, I've been looking for the proper range markings to ask for, and the only place I see a cruise RPM range specified is in the owner's manual, and it specifies 2200 - 2450. My current tach is marked with a green arc in this range, and a red (actually faded to pink :oops: ) line at 2700. Is this correct?

Miles
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lowNslow
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Post by lowNslow »

It should just like the picture in the Spruce link - green arc from 500-2700 with a red radial at 2700.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
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CraigH
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Post by CraigH »

Miles,
Let me know how it works out. My tach has a 50-75 RPM "waver" too. Sent it off for an overhaul AND installed a new cable but I've still got the "waver". I've learned to live with it, but it sure would be nice to have a steady indication.

My factory original tach has the same green marks (2200-2450) as yours does.
Craig Helm
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
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cessna170bdriver
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Post by cessna170bdriver »

I like the 2200-2450 green arc. The needle dropping past the low end of the arc has always been a subtle reminder that I need to be thinking of carb heat. I was just wondering if there is any "official" information out there.

Any thoughts about the "cruise" RPM?

Miles
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Post by GAHorn »

The tach in mine has a green arc from 2200-2450, then a yellow arc from 2450-2700, with a redline at 2700.

The B-model's Owner's Manual states in the operating section, "Cruising: Any cruising r.p.m. between 2200-2450 (green arc on
tachometer) may be selected."

Additionally, in the Operating Limitations Section, it states:
"Tachometer
"Normal Operation.......................2200-2450 (green arc)
"Cautionary Range.......................2450-2700
"Maximum Allowable.....................2700 (red line)

The A model Owner's Manual has the same wording in the Engine Limitations section on page 9.

While the actual words "yellow arc" are not seen.... there is no other standard method of denoting a cautionary range except a yellow arc, to my knowlege. Not placing a yellow arc in that area would fail to designate it as cautionary, therefore I believe that to be a correct marking.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
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170C
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Tach

Post by 170C »

While not keeping with the orginal look, an electronic tach would be a much more accurate/reliable means of knowing exactly what rpm you are turning.
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Post by GAHorn »

Electronic gauges that give digital readouts of numbers can also be less than helpful. Remember the airspeed readout you found difficult in the simulator Frank?
Trends, rather than absolute values, are more informative, and more commonly utilized both consciously and sub-consciously, than many realize. Analog gauges are easy to discern/detect trends... such as increasing or decreasing values... and they are easy to use when selecting a configuration quickly, or in poor light or turbulence. (1121 on an analog gauges is at the 10 o'clock position and 2450 is at the 2 o'clock position... while the four digits representing those two values are simply ...four digits that require reading/interpretation.) Movement on an analog gauge in a counterclockwise direction is a reduction, while movement in a clockwise direction is an increase in values. Peripheral vision can quickly determine that the relative position of a needle is about right. Four digits, ... are four digits. They must be read/interpreted and decided upon. (These are also reasons why even in more sophisticated aircraft such things as "digital" altimeters are also equipped with analog type needles. In fact, extra expense and design engineering is required in fully electronic instruments frequently in an attempt to portray their information in non-electronic, analog style. The displays are frequently designed to emulate analog needle gauges.) 8O
A wavering needle is a distraction. So are dancing digits. I gave away my digital EGT in a 206 and bought an analog unit for that reason. (A wavering needle in an analog gauge is most likely a defective drive or gauge which simply needs repair or replacement. Dancing digits in the digital gauge happens for similar reasons, either the sending unit is unstable, has a poor ground, poor connector, loose/failing components in the circuitry, etc. The original EGT in my 206 was repaired twice before we decided we were tired of it's constant changing digits, especially when backlit at night.)
Of course, a properly operating digital gauge can be a superior diagnostic tool. Just some thoughts.
Last edited by GAHorn on Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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lowNslow
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Post by lowNslow »

gahorn wrote:The tach in mine has a green arc from 2200-2450, then a yellow arc from 2450-2700, with a redline at 2700.

The B-model's Owner's Manual states in the operating section, "Cruising: Any cruising r.p.m. between 2200-2450 (green arc on
tachometer) may be selected."

Additionally, in the Operating Limitations Section, it states:
"Tachometer
"Normal Operation.......................2200-2450 (green arc)
"Cautionary Range.......................2450-2700
"Maximum Allowable.....................2700 (red line)

The A model Owner's Manual has the same wording in the Engine Limitations section on page 9.

While the actual words "yellow arc" are not seen.... there is no other standard method of denoting a cautionary range except a yellow arc, to my knowlege. Not placing a yellow arc in that area would fail to designate it as cautionary, therefore I believe that to be a correct marking.
This seems like the right answer according CAR3:

§ 3.759 Power-plant instruments. All
required power-plant instruments shall be marked
with a red radial line at the maximum and minimum
(if applicable) indications for safe operation. The
normal operating ranges shall be marked with a
green arc which shall not extend beyond the
maximum and minimum limits for continuous
operation. Take-off and precautionary ranges
shall be marred with a yellow arc.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
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cessna170bdriver
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Post by cessna170bdriver »

gahorn wrote:The tach in mine has a green arc from 2200-2450, then a yellow arc from 2450-2700, with a redline at 2700.

The B-model's Owner's Manual states in the operating section, "Cruising: Any cruising r.p.m. between 2200-2450 (green arc on
tachometer) may be selected."

Additionally, in the Operating Limitations Section, it states:
"Tachometer
"Normal Operation.......................2200-2450 (green arc)
"Cautionary Range.......................2450-2700
"Maximum Allowable.....................2700 (red line)

The A model Owner's Manual has the same wording in the Engine Limitations section on page 9.

While the actual words "yellow arc" are not seen.... there is no other standard method of denoting a cautionary range except a yellow arc, to my knowlege. Not placing a yellow arc in that area would fail to designate it as cautionary, therefore I believe that to be a correct marking.
Thanks, George,

I missed the the Engine Limitations section and the "Cautionary Range". I think it was discussed recently, but I'm still a bit confused at how there can be a "maximum continuous RPM" of 2700 and a cautionary range from 2450 - 2700.

In the BEFORE TAKEOFF section (p24-25) of the "Operating Checklist" section of the 1956 manual posted on the members only page, it mentions the engine is set to idle between 300 and 400 RPM, but except for a short check don't idle below 600. Later on, on page 28 in the "Operating Details" section it is mentioned that "at engine speeds below 600 RPM satisfactory piston lubrication cannot be maintained. Therefore it is recommended that the engine not be allowed to operate below 600 RPM for prolonged intervals." Would it be a good idea to put a yellow arc from 300 to 600?

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Miles
Miles

“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
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cessna170bdriver
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Re: Tach

Post by cessna170bdriver »

170C wrote:While not keeping with the orginal look, an electronic tach would be a much more accurate/reliable means of knowing exactly what rpm you are turning.
It might be useful to have a digital readout instrument in ADDITION to an analog tach. Like George says, you can't beat the analog gauge for quick interpretation. I've always been impressed by the analog gauges in many-engined "big iron" where you might have 6 or 7 different parameters on each of 4 or more engines. The needles are set up to all point to the same clock position when everything's OK. When one parameter on one engine goes out of whack, it sticks out like a sore thumb. One glance at the instrument panel tells you whether everything's OK or not. That wouldn't be possible with digital-only instrumentation.

However, the digital tach might be useful when looking for small changes, such as in our recommneded leaning technique. I have trouble discerning the minute rise I get when leaning in cruise, especially with my "jittery" tach. Even with a rock-steady tach it would be hard to discern changes of 20 RPM or less. It would be nice to have the digital display to tell you when you've really peaked.

Even though my real job has been in the electronic/digital/computer instrumentation business for 26+ years, and I'm not at all opposed to digital aircraft instrumentation, I still like the analog gauges for the stuff that really matters.

Miles
Miles

“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
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CraigH
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Post by CraigH »

Miles, you could always go with one of the EI tachs. Gives you both a visual and digital display, and it's TSO'ed.

I know several using them in their rag and tube taildraggers who swear by them.

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2000 RV-4
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Post by blueldr »

The Continental IO-360D engine that I installed in my plane did not have a mechanical tachometer drive on the accessory case.When I querried Continental about acquiring and installing the part, they informed me that that model also did not contain the internal gears for the tach drive since it was designed to be used on the Cessna 337 which used an electronic tach driven by the magneto primary leads.
As a result, I had to install an electronic tach that drove off of the "P" leads. The only analog type I could find was not recommended by the manufacturer for use on Bendix mags. As a result, I had to install a digital unit.
I hate the go--amn things. As George mentioned, you have to "look" at the damn thing too long and it never stops flopping the ones and tens. Biggest pain in the --- I ever saw on an instrument panel. I would never have another one if there was any other alternative.
BL
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Post by johneeb »

Blue,
One mans poison is another mans Budwieser. I have had my EI eletronic tach for several years and find it easy to use and far more accurate than the mechanical tach it replaced. When I first put it in I had a the orginal O-300 engine and when I upgraded the engine EI recalibreted the Tach, to the new engine's limits, for less than $50.00. Now that I have a constant speed prop I really appreciate the accuracy especially when setting cruise power. I also use EI electronic manifold pressure gauge, which functions the same as their electronic tach. The small size of these gauges is a nice benifit when doing panel layout.
John E. Barrett
aka. Johneb

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Post by Dave Clark »

I set my power with the old analog tach and then use the EI UBG tach to check it. But then my old analog tach is within 20 rpm at 2300 and rock steady so I guess I'm lucky. I do like the idea of being able to check the accuracy of the old tach once in a while.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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KAP54
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Post by KAP54 »

I noticed that UMA is now selling a TSO'd version of their electronic analog tach. Looks like the old mechanical tachs and can be ordered with custom range markings. Uses a generator of some type that drives off of the tach drive on the accessory case.
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