Eng. Overhaul

[mit]

I would like to hear what folks have to say about Eng. overhauls, who, what, when and where.... Are you happy with the job and cost? What Accessories where done?..... What was the cost?

[GAHorn]

I would like to hear what folks have to say about Eng. overhauls, who, what, when and where.... Are you happy with the job and cost? What Accessories where done?..... What was the cost?

Western Skyways, Montrose, CO http://www.westernskyways.com/ has done several overhauls with which I've been familiar. The workmanship, buisiness-like manner, and integrity has been impressive. (They did make a mistake on one engine, not a 170 engine, but their integrity came thru. They had twisted a left-threaded stud off and cracked the case. They could have just fixed it and a repair would have gone unnoticed. Instead, they called, told on themselves, and offered several options to the customer: A weld-repair by a certified shop,...a re-built case with fresh certification,...or a new case...any option paid for and warranted by themselves. Because a new case involved an extention beyond planned time-frames, the customer accepted a weld-repair. This was 5 years ago and the engine is still running without any difficulties other than wearing out a set of spark plugs.
All the accys were also overhauled, and the cost was negligible (any cost estimates in response to your question is likely dated info and not an apples-to-apples comparision. It's best to simply get a direct quote, IMHO. The subject engine was a prop-strike insurance job.)
When shopping for overhaul quotes:
1-Get it in writing! (I'm always amazed at the shocked looks on folks faces when their engine is all apart on the overhauler's table and the overhauler presents them with a whole new set of additonal costs due to "Well, I didn't know your engine would be this bad....")
2-Make certain all the specified items compare with each quote. (Does one shop include new ignition harnesses...but another doesn't? etc. etc. Makes a big difference in price!)
3-What about shipping? Who crates it up? Who insures it? And for how much?
4-Consider flying your airplane to the facility and letting them do all the removal/reinstallation work. That way that portion of the job is also likely to be covered by the warranty. (A warranty on an engine overhaul done across the country from you will not likel cover the costs of additional removal/reinstallation, freight, insurance, downtime, additional hoses/gaskets/fluids etc etc.... unless the overhauler also did the R/R work.)
5-Compare the actual specifications on work standards also. Will the less expensive quote you recieved be one " to service limits" while the more expensive quote be " to new limits"? etc. Makes a difference.

BTW, consider also whether you are returning a flying aircraft to airworthiness....or also restoring an airplane to original. You'll need to consider specifying the color your engine is painted...whether you will accept "Continental Gold" or if you prefer the original gray/black.

Disclaimer: It's always a bit dangerous to specificaly recommend a shop to someone, especially as Parts/Mx coordinator. You never know when a shop might change or otherwise drop the ball. The company I mention in this msg has been around long enough for anyone to check up on them personally. I recommend doing that with any shop. Do your homework. There are lots of good and bad shops out there, and even more individual mechanics who do "field overhauls"....a few of them excellent, many good, and lot's of 'em plainly horrible. Unless you KNOW your A&P and/or trust the person making the recommendation, it's usually a good idea to use a genuine, experienced engine shop holding an FAA CRS (Certified Repair Station certificate) for this kind of work because they have the tools, experience, and familiarity with the product. Plus, it's difficult to force a stubborn individual to warranty poor workmanship if his business isn't purely engine repairs with a reputation and a FAA CRS to maintain (and deep pockets to go after.) And if you DO have to force an individual to do warranty work.....do you really want HIM to do that work? (And he isn't likely to agree for you to have someone else do it, with him paying the bill.)

[56d]

It has been a long time since your reply, Mr G., but now I need some of the same advice from you and others. My O-300D (in my '56 B model) needs overhauling. I have been looking around and am certainly dismayed by the range in prices: $12 - 24,000!

Several shops (e.g., Airmark, Aerotec in Canada, Certified Engines Unlimited, Aircraft Engine Specialists) come in around $15,000 and seem to offer the same as the more expensive ones like Penn-Yan and Mattituck (new tolerances, new cylinders, similar warranty, etc). Western Skyways, incidentally, is now asking $23,000.

This is all very scary. Anybody have possibly useful experiences, ideas and opinions?

[c170b53]

A plug; Ken Vike in Kamloops B.C. does just about everyones engine in B.C.
(Lycoming and Continental ) He's an approved shop, does great work and at a reasonable cost. I'm sure there's more out there like him, trick is to find someone near to you.

[cessna170bdriver]

56D,

I'd be suspicious of your quotes on the lower end of the price range. I ended up doing mine myself under the tutelage of my AI in his shop. I haven't added everything up yet, but judging by the decrease in my bank account, I'm in the 18-19K range with having a machine shop overhaul and certify the case, crank, and rods; installing factory new camshaft, cylinders, and baffling, B&C starter, F&M oil filter adapter, overhauled carb and mags, and Electronics International UBG-16 Engine Analyzer. Even without all the optional new stuff, I would have been in the 14-15K range, and that's not including my labor. (I work cheap when I work for myself )

If you have written quotes, take a close look at what they include. If it's just a number without details, ask for the details or run away from the shop. The quote I got from Lycon in Visalia, CA last summer was around 18K with overhauled cylinders and accessories, and up to 22K if new cylinders, updated push rod tubes, and B&C starter were included. It did not include replacement of any big parts such as crank, cam, rods, case, etc. (You won't know what's required there until tear down and inspection.) Run-in and a dyno report were also included. My guess is that some of the more expensive overhauls automatically include new cam and lifters, and test run time. Some may even provide a "zero timed" engine. Also look at the warranty provided by the various shops. A good warranty can be worth big bucks if there's a problem.

Miles

[N3243A]

Tim,

I'm currently overhauling my engine. I don't know if you want to keep your engine overhaul in Alaska but I chose to in order to keep the transportation costs low. Also, I wanted an overhauler I could drive up to and talk face to face with.

Of the shops down here in southcentral AK, I went with Jim Dittlinger of Alaska Aircraft Cylinders in Chugiak. He is a one man shop with a waiting list so I had to wait 3 months just to get my engine in his shop. He is an ECI dealer but will put any cylinder on you want. He uses ECI for crankcase, crankshaft and camshaft machining and certification. You never know what it's really going to cost until the engine is broken down and the critical parts mentioned above are inspected. His estimate of my engine alone is $16,000 with good core components, new ECI cyls, new Sky-tec starter, new Slick magneto kits, but reusing the cam and lifters. With another A&P doing removal, installation, farming out the exhaust rebuild at Atlee Dodge, Engine mount certification and powder coat, new this and that etc. it looks like another $3000 for a grand total of $19,000.

Other shops down here I have visited are Aero Recip at Lake Hood and B&J's at Palmer. I would have gone with Aero Recip but I'm pretty sure I'm saving about $2-3K going with Jim at Alaska Aircraft Cyls. Being a one man shop with low overhead keeps his costs low. He also gives a good break on parts (doesn't charge MSRP). I was told by several mechanics to avoid Alaska Aircraft Engines at Merrill field, however.

One other thing, he told me it's a 60 day turnaround just to have the critical parts shipped, worked on and returned, so the whole deal is about 2.5 months of wait...........

Bruce

[mit]

Tim,

I'm currently overhauling my engine. I don't know if you want to keep your engine overhaul in Alaska but I chose to in order to keep the transportation costs low. Also, I wanted an overhauler I could drive up to and talk face to face with.

Of the shops down here in southcentral AK, I went with Jim Dittlinger of Alaska Aircraft Cylinders in Chugiak. He is a one man shop with a waiting list so I had to wait 3 months just to get my engine in his shop. He is an ECI dealer but will put any cylinder on you want. He uses ECI for crankcase, crankshaft and camshaft machining and certification. You never know what it's really going to cost until the engine is broken down and the critical parts mentioned above are inspected. His estimate of my engine alone is $16,000 with good core components, new ECI cyls, new Sky-tec starter, new Slick magneto kits, but reusing the cam and lifters. With another A&P doing removal, installation, farming out the exhaust rebuild at Atlee Dodge, Engine mount certification and powder coat, new this and that etc. it looks like another $3000 for a grand total of $19,000.

Other shops down here I have visited are Aero Recip at Lake Hood and B&J's at Palmer. I would have gone with Aero Recip but I'm pretty sure I'm saving about $2-3K going with Jim at Alaska Aircraft Cyls. Being a one man shop with low overhead keeps his costs low. He also gives a good break on parts (doesn't charge MSRP). I was told by several mechanics to avoid Alaska Aircraft Engines at Merrill field, however.

One other thing, he told me it's a 60 day turnaround just to have the critical parts shipped, worked on and returned, so the whole deal is about 2.5 months of wait...........

Bruce

Thanks Bruce good report. I have about 3000 in my overhaul fund it sure is hard to save money now days! I was thinking about using Aero Recip. and it would be nice to stay in state.

[GAHorn]

I'd be curious how much all the shipping added up to for the individual pieces (cases, cranks, cyls, etc etc) versus shipping an entire engine out/back. It might be closer than one thinks... not to say doing business with a well-trusted local isn't attractive...

[GAHorn]

I'd be curious how much all the shipping added up to for the individual pieces (cases, cranks, cyls, etc etc) versus shipping an entire engine out/back. It might be closer than one thinks... of course doing business with a well-trusted local is always attractive...

[56d]

Thanks all; I hope the adivice keeps pouring in. I am not yet persuaded that all these shops coming in at around $15000 are either losing money or cutting major corners. They all say new cylinders (usually my choice of brand), new mags and harness, new or overhauled starter, carb, sometimes alternator. All have a decent warranty starting with one year. All say new tolerances.

It seems reasonable that shops doing lots of overhauls are getting hefty discounts on parts and are saving a lot in other ways because of volume. Western Skyways, by the way, reduced their price after I pointed out that others were quite a bit lower. They at first responded that their parts costs alone were around $19000 (surely he meant parts and basic labor). Their reduced price is $19945. I find it a bit difficult to believe that they are willing to make only a 5% profit.

Of course, we are dealing here with the ever-present and ever-growing self-destructive nature of the business. Almost no one in aviation cares about us owners who care about how much we spend.

I heard second-hand, but reasonably credibly, that a Penn-Yan guy allowed that they weren't much interested in overhauling O-300's, because they were a pain in the butt, so they just put their price up where it either drove customers off or they made so much it was worth the pain.

So I still don't know what to do. I don't think I can consider doing the work myself at this point. My mechanic is over an hour away and I just don't have the time. Incidentally, how do you do all the balancing and test-stand stuff when you are on your own?

Thanks again.

[N3243A]

I'd be curious how much all the shipping added up to for the individual pieces (cases, cranks, cyls, etc etc) versus shipping an entire engine out/back. It might be closer than one thinks... of course doing business with a well-trusted local is always attractive...

That's a reasonable question George. My thinking is that if you send the whole engine to say Western Skyways, you are paying round trip shipping for the whole huge crated engine from Alaska to them + then they will charge you for more shipping the same core components after dissassembly to ECI or Divco or wherever. Granted that it is all shipping within the lower 48 so would be somewhat cheaper. Also, you would initially be sending down the weight and bulk of 6 old run-out cylinder assemblies whos only value at teardown is the rocker arms. After that, the old cyls. are best utilized as flower pots, so why pay to ship them anywhere? I'll post shipping charges on my project as I learn them.

Shipping aside, my overhauler came pretty highly recommended from several trusted sources as a lot of bang for the buck. Plus I know where he lives........

[cessna170bdriver]

So I still don't know what to do. I don't think I can consider doing the work myself at this point. My mechanic is over an hour away and I just don't have the time. Incidentally, how do you do all the balancing and test-stand stuff when you are on your own?

I can't blame you at all for having a shop do the overhaul. This has been such a tedious process that there has been times I wished I had sent mine out for a turnkey job. I've spent a LOT of hours researching and ordering parts. Even then, there have been times I've lost days at a time waiting on some $2 part I either overlooked in the ordering process or was omitted by a pain-in-the-backside supplier. Even though I may never do it again, the (re)education has been worthwhile, and I think I'm getting at least as good an engine as I would have if I had sent it out.

As far as the balancing goes, I did have a well known and respected shop overhaul the crankshaft and rods, and I'm confident they followed all of TCM's specs on static balance, as well as new bushings and pins in the counterweight system. The prop is also fresh overhauled and balanced. If there's still detectable roughness during run-in, there is a mobile balancing outfit here that several guys on the aiport have had good luck with.

I do wish I had access to a test stand, and even though ECI says that is the best way to go, they do provide detailed instructions for doing a run-in on the airplane. I did that the last time around and it seemed to work OK. I have the added advantage this time of 6-cylinder CHT and EGT.

Miles

[N1478D]

Incidentally, how do you do all the balancing and test-stand stuff when you are on your own?

Thanks again.

ECI now offers to balance your parts, and they will balance them with your crank if you desire.

There's a salvage yard at LNC here in the DFW area that has a test stand. Maybe there's one available in your area.

[GAHorn]

I'd be curious how much all the shipping added up to for the individual pieces (cases, cranks, cyls, etc etc) versus shipping an entire engine out/back. It might be closer than one thinks... of course doing business with a well-trusted local is always attractive...

That's a reasonable question George. My thinking is that if you send the whole engine to say Western Skyways, you are paying round trip shipping for the whole huge crated engine from Alaska to them + then they will charge you for more shipping the same core components after dissassembly to ECI or Divco or wherever. Granted that it is all shipping within the lower 48 so would be somewhat cheaper. Also, you would initially be sending down the weight and bulk of 6 old run-out cylinder assemblies whos only value at teardown is the rocker arms. After that, the old cyls. are best utilized as flower pots, so why pay to ship them anywhere? I'll post shipping charges on my project as I learn them.

Shipping aside, my overhauler came pretty highly recommended from several trusted sources as a lot of bang for the buck. Plus I know where he lives........

Excellent discussion points, all. I'd imagine the old cyls (if airworthy at all) would at least bring a trade-in/salvage value tho'. I got $230 each from my old IO-520 cyls, and that more than pays for freight for the engine shipping/return. ( 'course, ... I guess I'da got that from a local guy too, maybe?)

[cessna170bdriver]

There's a salvage yard at LNC here in the DFW area that has a test stand. Maybe there's one available in your area.

Actually there IS a test stand in Tehachapi, owned by Vintage V-12, an Allison, Rolls-Royce, etc. overhauler, though I'm not sure how to adapt his test club to the O-300. The water cooling system would be a challenge too...

Miles