Ground handling in the wind

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Hey I'm kind of fishing for experience here with the caveat that I do take stuff I read on the web with a grain of salt, but we seem to have a lot of straightforward people here, so I thought I would ask you folks.

How much wind in your experience is too much for ground handling in the 170? We have this incessant wind where I live that isn't a problem flying, or landing. However, I was out at the airport the other day checking my tiedowns and watching the up wind wing lift up against the rope. The wind was blowing it's usual 20ish mph, gusting up into the high 20s. I used to taxi the the 152 out to the runway in this kind of breeze without any worries, but the way the 170 rocks on it's narrower landing gear it looks like I should be getting real nervous with a front quartering wind gusting into the high 20s. Anybody have thoughts, or had their plane blown over?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well let me tell you I used to commute to and from work with my 170 which has single puck Cleveland brakes.

Generally the runways where in the direction of wind but not the taxi ways.

I've taxied in winds over 20kts and probably as high as 25kts sustained with gusts higher. I've had to stand on one brake and then over power it with the engine in order to go straight or close to straight. Kind of in a big arc really then make a large correction at the end and repeat. I've even have had to do continuous 360s to continue in the general direction I needed to go to get to the end of the runway. Once I thought I'd have to shut down and tow the plane backwards to the end of the runway but I eventually made it to the runway by timing my taxiing to periods in between the peak gusts.

Had to get home you know.

I can't say that I ever remember thinking I was going to get blown over.

BTW don't let anybody tell you commuting to work with your plane would be fun. It's not.

Also if you have to implement the techniques I just described in order to get to the end of the runway your flight won't be the smoothest flight either. Oh before you depart make absolutely sure you'll be able to handle the crosswind if any at your arrival airport.

[doug8082a]

I had my 170 close to blown over once (tipped up on one wing tip, actually), but it was (supposedly) tiedown at the time and the winds were up in the 50kts range.

I've taxied with winds around 20-ish and, as Bruce described, it can require some creative use of the asphalt at times to get from point A to point B. Just take your time and plan ahead. Also, don't forget the appropriate control inputs while taxiing. I once had the right wing pick up a bit until I realized my aileron position was backwards. It came right back down when I got them positioned correctly. Those ailerons can be effective on the ground if the wind is strong enough.

[cessna170bdriver]

Here around Tehachapi and Mojave (CA), 20-25 knots is not uncommon. The local joke is that we don't start calling it "wind" until 15 knots. Out of necessity I've taxied in low 20's gusting to low 30's, and these wind speeds seem to be pretty much within the envelope. While I’ve heard credible stories of 170’s being taxied in 40 knots, I sure wouldn't go looking for it!

Our high wing “conventional” geared airplanes seem to be the worst configuration for ground ops in windy conditions (for wheeled airplanes at least). It can get plenty hairy when the wind gets under one of the wings. Fortunately, the 170 handles the wind fairly well if you correctly use all 5 controls (don’t forget power and brakes!). If you still have your old ground school books around, find the diagram that shows what to do with the flight controls while taxiing in wind from varying directions. Next time you find yourself in a stiff quartering head wind, try taxiing with and without full uypwind aileron rolled into it. You’ll notice quite a difference in the amount of brake and rudder required to stay out of the weeds. If you have trouble memorizing the diagram, just remember to position the controls so the relative wind holds DOWN what ever surface they are attached to. If you have a tailwind component greater than your taxi speed, this means down elevator... and downwind aileron if there is quartering tailwind.

Also, the tailwheel steering on 170’s is anything but positive, so keep those brakes in good repair! In a pinch, I’d fly with inop tailwheel steering, but wouldn’t untie the ropes if I suspected a brake problem.

One of the hardest maneuvers on the ground (to me at least) is a turn to downwind after a complete stop (for whatever reason) while crosswind. With the wind up into the high teens or so, you can add a healthy amount of power, let the airplane roll forward a few feet to build up a bit of momentum (you will have to drag the downwind brake a bit to keep from turning into the wind), then stab the rudder and brake into the turn. Downwind aileron and neutral or slightly down elevator seems to help also. This isn’t the smoothest maneuver in the world but it works for me. If the wind gets into the 20’s, you can let the nose swing into the wind and let enough momentum build in the turn to carry you through 270 degrees in the opposite direction. (Be sure to keep those ailerons and elevators in the right places as you go around!) The trick is to have enough momentum to carry you past upwind, but not so much that you go around again. A large empty ramp might be a good place to practice.

I’m not an instructor, and I may not have done the best job in the world at describing these techniques. It’s just my attempt at relating how I’ve managed to make it work for me through more than 2000 C-170 landings (4000 taxis?). To paraphrase Bruce, this advice is worth what you paid for it.

Miles

[N1478D]

Well Bruce, it must matter where the commute is - I LOVE commuting to work by airplane. The auto traffic is probably worse here in the DFW metroplex than where you live. On the bad rainy days, or when the plane is down for maint, I can't hardly stand going to and from work.

Those 360's on the really bad days while taxiing are not all that fun, my brakes usually start getting hot and loose effectiveness in the strong winds if the taxi is for a long distance.

Have never felt like the plane was going to blow over, but have been a little worried about it. Have gotten out and the wind has turned the plane and I have had to chase it. Hangars really start paying for themselves on the really windy days.

Other than the above taxiing issues, don't think you will have a problem with the winds under 35 knots while you are in the plane at the controls.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well Bruce, it must matter where the commute is - I LOVE commuting to work by airplane. The auto traffic is probably worse here in the DFW metroplex than where you live. On the bad rainy days, or when the plane is down for maint, I can't hardly stand going to and from work.

Well Joe we could argue whether traffic is worse in DFW or NYC but we won't.

My point is I wanted to fly which lead to headaches making the weather call for not only the trip to work but the trip home as much as 4 days later. Lets just say I flew in plenty of wind and weather the average weekend flyer doesn't

[rudymantel]

Taxiing in a crosswing is challenging. Those uncommanded 360's were embarrasing as were the excursions from taxiway into the grass. I solved the problem as follows:

I replaced my single-puck Cleveland brakes with the large double-puck ones- Parker-Hanniffin (Cleveland) 199-62 kit works great. It's STC'd for the 180 (not the 170) but I had no trouble getting a field approval. Cost of the kit about two years ago was around $800- that's with new wheels, disks and brake assemblies. Best investment I ever made on my airplane - made crosswind taxiing much easier.
Also, use the standard 600x6 tires. Larger tires extend the moment arm from brake to ground, reducing brake effectiveness.
And make sure the wheels are aligned per the 100 series service manual and that the tail wheel is correctly rigged. The angle of the pivot axle should be close to vertical.
Rudy

[GAHorn]

Well Bruce, it must matter where the commute is - I LOVE commuting to work by airplane. The auto traffic is probably worse here in the DFW metroplex than where you live. On the bad rainy days, or when the plane is down for maint, I can't hardly stand going to and from work.

Well Joe we could argue whether traffic is worse in DFW or NYC but we won't.

My point is I wanted to fly which lead to headaches making the weather call for not only the trip to work but the trip home as much as 4 days later. Lets just say I flew in plenty of wind and weather the average weekend flyer doesn't

Bruce, you must keep in mind that it is during DFW peak-traffic periods that Joe has the rare pleasure of actually getting to look down and see himself PASSING CARS on the roads!

[rudymantel]

Looking down and passing cars- that IS a treat in a 170 !
Rudy