Is there anyone out there who routinely wheel lands a 170 with a Horton STOL kit?
I've owned my '55 170B about a year, and I formerly owned another stock 170B, N2947D. My current one has the Horton kit: leading edge cuffs, fences, aileron gap seals, and droop tips. I don't know what it stalls at (the airspeed reads close-as-dammit to zero when it stalls) but I assume it's between 45 and 50 MPH. I usually have it at 60 over the fence, and it makes a very nice, S L O W three-point landing with 20 or 30 degrees of flaps. I'm usually between 1800 and 2050 gross weight, with a CG arm right around 40 inches, which is well into the forward part of the range.
When I try to wheel land this airplane, I bounce like crazy. It wants to keep flying, and it feels like I'm landing it too fast. If I slow it down to where it wants to land, it's in a 3-point attitude, and I usually end up 3-pointing it.
A friend of mine flies a stock '53 B-model 170, and is well used to wheel landing it. He tried to wheel my 170 today, and couldn't believe how it bounced; so bad, he went around rather than try to recover -- it was the only thing to do. After a few tries he managed to wheel it on a few times, but fighting it all the way (we had some crosswind, too). He says my airplane feels all different from his. It felt to me like the airplane was just going too fast.
I've read and reread the thread with the "Wheel Landings Article," and I saw where Bela mentioned wheel landing his 170 with the Sportsman kit. I don't know how different this would be from my Horton mod, but maybe the principle is the same: is it the case that with these mods the 170 is just a much better 3-point airplane than a wheeler? I also fly a Swift, which is just the opposite -- so the concept isn't foreign to me.
So, once again: is there anyone out there who routinely wheel lands a 170 with a STOL kit?
Best Regards,
John
Wheel landings with Horton STOL kit?
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Wheel landings with Horton STOL kit?
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
I've read that article too (how to land a taildragger... I think
it's on the 180 site).
The Cessna spring steel gear can be.. well... Springy!
Then if the Horton kit adds substantial wing area like the Sportsman
does, you've got that to deal with.
How about your gear legs? Do you have later model 180 gear
legs? That will place the axle centerlines 3.5 inches forward of
the "stock" C-170 axle centerlines, and may account for the
noted difference in handling mentioned between airplanes. The
180 gear is also stiffer, which on a light airplane like the 170,
might make for a difference in handling compared to a
stock-geared 170.
If there is a "secret", I suppose it's to teach your mind's eye and
your butt exactly where the bottom of the tires are, and when the
tires touch, "pin it on" with just a gentle bit of forward pressure.
Too much decsent rate, and she'll bounce, no matter how hard
you try to pin it on. If you're "searching" for where the bottom
of the tires are while you bleed off speed, just like you said,
you're inching closer and closer to what would have been
a 3-point landing anyway.
I still say the 180, with it's higher wing loading, is way easier to land
then a lightly loaded 170. The latter just wants to keep flying if there's
any kind of speed left on the clock on rollout. And when the wind is gusty
or there's a howling crosswind, you have no choice but to carry a little
more speed to maintain directional control. That's what makes the 170
a little more challenging to land when the wind is howling!
it's on the 180 site).
The Cessna spring steel gear can be.. well... Springy!
Then if the Horton kit adds substantial wing area like the Sportsman
does, you've got that to deal with.
How about your gear legs? Do you have later model 180 gear
legs? That will place the axle centerlines 3.5 inches forward of
the "stock" C-170 axle centerlines, and may account for the
noted difference in handling mentioned between airplanes. The
180 gear is also stiffer, which on a light airplane like the 170,
might make for a difference in handling compared to a
stock-geared 170.
If there is a "secret", I suppose it's to teach your mind's eye and
your butt exactly where the bottom of the tires are, and when the
tires touch, "pin it on" with just a gentle bit of forward pressure.
Too much decsent rate, and she'll bounce, no matter how hard
you try to pin it on. If you're "searching" for where the bottom
of the tires are while you bleed off speed, just like you said,
you're inching closer and closer to what would have been
a 3-point landing anyway.
I still say the 180, with it's higher wing loading, is way easier to land
then a lightly loaded 170. The latter just wants to keep flying if there's
any kind of speed left on the clock on rollout. And when the wind is gusty
or there's a howling crosswind, you have no choice but to carry a little
more speed to maintain directional control. That's what makes the 170
a little more challenging to land when the wind is howling!
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-180
'54 C-180
John- I don't know if I read this, or if someone told me, but I add slight nose DOWN trim on short final. When the mains touch down, just release back pressure and this will stick the airplane on nicely. I'm a low tailwheel time pilot who has only had my plane a year now...a C170A with what I consider "soft" gear...and this made a world of difference in my wheel landings. Don't know if you've tried this, but thought I'd mention it.
Jim Brown
N9753A
'49 C170A
N9753A
'49 C170A
I may be wrong, but the way it was expained to me if that when you bounce it's because you have too much airspeed for the angle of attack of the wing at that given time, therfore when you wheel land you are usually faster than what you would be for a three point and It is important to decrease the angle of attack so you produce less lift to keep the aircraft on the ground, so i'm assuming that if you have a high lift wing you may have to get the tail a little higher than a stock wing. I know when I wheel land and bounce it was because I didnt push foward hard enough, you would be suprized how much foward pressure is require to acomplish this. This all of course base on my experience on my ragwing in which could be different then the other models.
Vic
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
John, maybe we can play around with this at Petit Jean. I have a 55 also, and while it doesn't have a STOL, it has droopier tips, gap seals, 180 gear, 8.50 tires. What size tires do you have? I'm sure, like mine, your trim is already way forward just to keep the nose level with each deg of B flaps. Do you drag it in or land like over an object? No matter, it should set down pretty either way. I guess you pull up on the nose, to slow the descent, and then lower the nose back down to roll the wheels on.
I can't see why it wouldn't be just that much easier to land softly, fast or slow. Just a matter of angle of attack changing when the wheels touch, right? Isn't 60 mph, over the fence, more like A speed though?
What I might do for experiment. Set up to touch and go, but not stop, on a long runway. Fly (lowest speed) with wheels just above rnwy, without touching. Gently drive it on, keeping tail and speed up for a ways, and then lift it off again when ready. No one ever taught me do this, so it might be one stupid stunt, but that's how I taught myself to wheel land. Seems like one could learn how much forward pressure is needed, where to set the trim for wheel landings, and etc., to keep the individual plane glued to the ground.
Constructive Criticism welcome!
I can't see why it wouldn't be just that much easier to land softly, fast or slow. Just a matter of angle of attack changing when the wheels touch, right? Isn't 60 mph, over the fence, more like A speed though?
What I might do for experiment. Set up to touch and go, but not stop, on a long runway. Fly (lowest speed) with wheels just above rnwy, without touching. Gently drive it on, keeping tail and speed up for a ways, and then lift it off again when ready. No one ever taught me do this, so it might be one stupid stunt, but that's how I taught myself to wheel land. Seems like one could learn how much forward pressure is needed, where to set the trim for wheel landings, and etc., to keep the individual plane glued to the ground.
Constructive Criticism welcome!
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
My 180 had a Horton and I wheel landed it routinely. I wheel land my 170 (no STOL kit but 180 gear) routinely.
To add to the comments already made:
Your 55 should have the later 170 gear. I believe they are about the same stiffness as the early 180 gear but I'm not sure on the axle position. If the 180 gear axels are 3" or so forward of your 170 late gear it seems to me the airplane would feel like it wants to swap ends a little more than normal and I have not noticed that. At the speed required for wheel landings you should have plenty of control authority. Perhaps you're trying to wheel it on at too slow of an airspeed. I've put mine on the wheels as fast as 80. If you're using 60 I think that's too slow, try 70. The Horton won't get it's feelings hurt, really.
Attitude is indeed the key. On takeoff after the tail comes up keep forward pressure on pinning it on the ground until it hits 70 or 75 then take a mental picture of the attitude out the windshield because that's what you want to see on wheel landing right as the mains touch. At least until you get that mastered youll need to add some power to slow the descent rate. I usually have just a little power on but if my approach is too fast I can use that speed instead of power but it's trickier because you have to time it pretty good. I know with my old A model with the limp D### gear carrying power to stop the descent rate was critical to good wheel landings.
Report back
To add to the comments already made:
Your 55 should have the later 170 gear. I believe they are about the same stiffness as the early 180 gear but I'm not sure on the axle position. If the 180 gear axels are 3" or so forward of your 170 late gear it seems to me the airplane would feel like it wants to swap ends a little more than normal and I have not noticed that. At the speed required for wheel landings you should have plenty of control authority. Perhaps you're trying to wheel it on at too slow of an airspeed. I've put mine on the wheels as fast as 80. If you're using 60 I think that's too slow, try 70. The Horton won't get it's feelings hurt, really.
Attitude is indeed the key. On takeoff after the tail comes up keep forward pressure on pinning it on the ground until it hits 70 or 75 then take a mental picture of the attitude out the windshield because that's what you want to see on wheel landing right as the mains touch. At least until you get that mastered youll need to add some power to slow the descent rate. I usually have just a little power on but if my approach is too fast I can use that speed instead of power but it's trickier because you have to time it pretty good. I know with my old A model with the limp D### gear carrying power to stop the descent rate was critical to good wheel landings.
Report back
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
Dave, this sounds so strange to me.
I set up the same way, 3 point or wheel landing, and might not know what I'm doing untill the last second. Just pull all the way back or let it land and push forward. If the stall light is not on, I consider it a hot landing. I'd be scared to heck approaching a landing at 80 mph, even if my plane could fly that fast. My mechanic flew with me the other day and he asked if I'd landed with the brakes on. I guess I just about do! When I land, my hand goes from throttle off, to flaps dumped, at the same time brakes are on. This is left over from landing on one way 800 ft strips in my previous life. Guess I should get off those brakes now!
His plane will probably fly at 40 mph, right! I'm all ears, but if he is going to STOL at 6O mph, why have a STOL?
I set up the same way, 3 point or wheel landing, and might not know what I'm doing untill the last second. Just pull all the way back or let it land and push forward. If the stall light is not on, I consider it a hot landing. I'd be scared to heck approaching a landing at 80 mph, even if my plane could fly that fast. My mechanic flew with me the other day and he asked if I'd landed with the brakes on. I guess I just about do! When I land, my hand goes from throttle off, to flaps dumped, at the same time brakes are on. This is left over from landing on one way 800 ft strips in my previous life. Guess I should get off those brakes now!
His plane will probably fly at 40 mph, right! I'm all ears, but if he is going to STOL at 6O mph, why have a STOL?
Last edited by AR Dave on Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
John doesn't have anything close to a stock 170B, so we're getting completly off the subject comparing 180's vs stock 170's. I don't want that to sound rude. Here 
The question is - how does John get his slow flying STOL 170B, to wheel land without bouncing (like a STOL should)?
The question is - how does John get his slow flying STOL 170B, to wheel land without bouncing (like a STOL should)?
Last edited by AR Dave on Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Think the best practice to get where you want to be would be to do the touch and goes as mentioned above. Keep the tail up with enough speed and anchor the wheels on the runway then lift off after a reasonable distance. Try 20 degrees flaps so you are already in takeoff configuration. Also a gravel or grass runway would be more forgiving until you are confortable with doing it. Had a fellow land my 55' at 100 mph indicated and he kept it on the ground fine. Be on the rudder peddles, kinda like a dance step, your feet need to react before your brain catches up.
Thanks, guys! There are lots of good ideas here. As Mike Vivion said in the "Wheel Landings Article" thread, there's nothing like practicing with an instructor.
I can do wheel landings, but the problem seems to be that the Horton 170 is a different beast, and I don't know any instructors with experience in that particular configuration. I do know one who can probably help me figure it out though, and I'll give him a call.
The reason for all this is that I'm planning to take the 170 to Alaska at the end of June, with a friend who has gobs of tailwheel time but no 170 time, and who prefers always to wheel land, rather than 3-point. He's flown my J3 plenty, and his wheelies are usually better than my 3-pointers. So I'd like to be able to tell him how to wheel my 170 if possible, since he'll probably be more comfortable that way. More accurately, I've got to get a CFI prepared to show him how to land it, because the insurance company requires him to have 2 hours of dual before he can act as PIC.
So this whole thing is pretty complicated, the more so because I'm thinking of taking my Swift to AK as well -- so my friend would have the 170 all to himself. The two of us flew my J3 to Anchorage and back 2 years ago, and I just have to go back! I'm getting pretty excited about it.
Best Regards,
John
I can do wheel landings, but the problem seems to be that the Horton 170 is a different beast, and I don't know any instructors with experience in that particular configuration. I do know one who can probably help me figure it out though, and I'll give him a call.
The reason for all this is that I'm planning to take the 170 to Alaska at the end of June, with a friend who has gobs of tailwheel time but no 170 time, and who prefers always to wheel land, rather than 3-point. He's flown my J3 plenty, and his wheelies are usually better than my 3-pointers. So I'd like to be able to tell him how to wheel my 170 if possible, since he'll probably be more comfortable that way. More accurately, I've got to get a CFI prepared to show him how to land it, because the insurance company requires him to have 2 hours of dual before he can act as PIC.
So this whole thing is pretty complicated, the more so because I'm thinking of taking my Swift to AK as well -- so my friend would have the 170 all to himself. The two of us flew my J3 to Anchorage and back 2 years ago, and I just have to go back! I'm getting pretty excited about it.
Best Regards,
John
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Re-read that wheel landing article by Bill White. Pay particular attentiion where he talks about coming over the fence, leveling off about 10 feet (?) above the runway, then relaxing back pressure til you touch down. It's hard to do when the airplane starts descending again, the tendency is to add some back pressure & "feel for the runway" with the mains. If the tail is coming down (or the stick is coming back ) when the mains touch, the angle of attack will increase & the airplane will bounce/fly off the ground. It is possible to feel for the runway &/or make a tail-low wheel landing, but the timing is crucial. If you relax back pressure after leveling off ( to zero descent rate) close to the ground, then hold that yoke position until the wheels touch, you might bounce-- but if you don't allow the AOA to increase, you will not fly off. The bounce will be one bounce only, as long as the AOA sstays the same. If you get a bounce/porpoise going on, you can 1) go around, 2) turn it into a three-pointer, or 3) stick it on the ground firmly with forward stick pressure timed just as the mains come down. It's easier to do than to describe- really!
Eric
Eric
Wheel landings with a Horton STOL kit
My 54 B has a Horton STOL kit and flap gap seals. I have no problem wheel landing it but like all taildraggers, it will surprise you when you least expect it. Like AR Dave said, we can play with this at Petit Jean by comparing planes with different configurations. Dave, are you going to post a list of food items for people to bring? With the size crowd that we are drawing, we will need lots of grub. Just returned from Sun N Fun. There were lots of 170's there. I didn't make it to the 170 forums, had to leave Thursday morning.