Follow-on to Handheld GPS

[GAHorn]

Yep I'm glad I asked such a basic question. Thanks!
George I'm not legal for IFR. Flying to midfield and looking at the windsock is exactly what I've always done. .....

Bruce I do need to use that DG more as a navigational tool. Honestly I forget about it until I'm about to fly through the clouds. For that I set it to stay straight on course, if not I tend to turn right.

But picturing the runway layout and the direction I'm flying on the DG will work for me. I'll start practicing that locally and get in the habit.

Well, Dave (not Bruce...sorry) ...I'm not commenting on those statements about not being IFR rated ...but using a DG when flying thru clouds..... but....

Not being IFR rated does not mean you can't use IFR procedures and charts in VFR conditions. In fact, it would be good if all VFR pilots got familiar with them IMHO. YOu don't even have to buy the charts. (Although having a book of charts of the state or area you most commonly fly in the cockpit with you is always a good idea. I recommend the NOAA books because they all have a diagram of the airport on every page.)
Go to http://www.airnav.com/ and look up any airport. (Let's use Petit Jean for an example.) http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMPJ

If you'll look down on the page you'll see another link which will take you to an opportunity to download an Adobe PDF file of the NOAA approach chart for that airport runway. (Airports with multiple runways will offer you multiple approaches, all for free.) The following link will actuate when you click on that link. (Open it right now in a seperate window by right-clicking on the link below and select "open in new window".) http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/05795R3.PDF
Next you'll see the entire approach chart for an RNAV approach (the only approach available at Petit Jean). Look at the chart and you'll also see on the lower right-hand corner an airport diagram. The chart also lists ALL the airport frequencies in use, and it also gives a MSA (minimum safe altitude) should you get lost in the area (within 30 NM of the Initial Approach Fix (IAP) known as JETSI. (See those little quadrants drawn out with arcs and course-lines depicting the boundaries of the MSA areas? Normally a MSA is depicted from the IAF of approaches, and areas known as quadrants are depicted to show the MSA in that quadrant. Pretty handy in fog, heh? A MSA will keep you 1,000' above the highest thing in the quadrant, so if you get disoriented in that quadrant all you need to know to stay clear of all terrain/towers, bldgs/ etc. is climb to 3500.)
Now: Notice that the Final Approch Fix (FAF) for Rwy 3 is TOTCE. All you have to do is enter TOTCE in your GPS as a waypoint to fly to before proceeding to the airport KMPJ and when your GPS shows you at TOTCE all you have to do is turn toward the airport and there you are on 5 mile final!
Or, even tho' no approach is available for RWY 21, all you have to do is use the Missed Approach Point (MAP) UPAKE for your own VFR (home-made) FAF and use it to land on Rwy 21.
Now, ordinarily I'd discourage anyone from flying to an unfamiliar airport and entering a straight-in final approach because that negates the safety features of flying complete traffic patterns,...but to give you some navigational assistance toward a new field, you can fly to the FAF using the MSA, then turn toward the field, remaining at MSA or 1,000' above pattern altitude and that will give you an excellent view of the field, and an excellent opportunity to enter the traffic pattern from that point (either an upwind leg, or from over the field turning downwind.)
Hope all that verbage helped.
In any case, go get a NOAA book of approach charts for your state or area and keep it in the cockpit. It's a real helpful book to have, and you don't have to buy updates all the time, just update it once a year or so. In fact, find a local pilot who is ready to throw an expired book out (they are published every 56 days) and ask for his old one. They don't change all that much very frequently, and are certainly a good VFR tool to have.
Hope this is helpful.

[n3833v]

Yes George, he does. You might not believe such things could be true.

John

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Wait a minute. I never said anything about not being instrument rated or flying through clouds. I've been rated since I had a license coming out of the military. I believe that was Dave.

I certainly would NEVER fly through a single little white puffy cloud all by itself in a clear blue sky unless of course I was rated, current and on an instrument flight plan.

[AR Dave]

Now don't let me set any of you Lower 48 pilots off here like I did when we landed in the dark at Valley, but what does having a rating mean. Don't answer that question! Would you rather be able to really fly IFR or put your confidence in the fact that you have a rating. OK, that could open up a can of worms for another subject. Maybe I've learned everything the wrong way, not having ground school or other proper training, but I've gone up with a few fellars that had recently got one of them certificates and I wonder how they got it. There is a lot of difference in a simulator and flying blind. But I showed them what I do and got them to trust the instruments and remain patient. Actually at my last biannual the instructor really encouraged me to get the certificate, but then you have to stay updated every 6 months or something like that. What a hassle! Besides I don't fly IFR, I just use the instruments to go up or down through the ceiling, not in bad weather or anything like that. George I'm baiting you a bit, The best pilot I know, who taught me the most and is a famous Alaskan Bush Pilot, got his pilots license after logging 5000 hrs. He had taken his Solo with this one particular instructor, but then hunting season came around and he had work to do. He logs about 1000 hrs flying during hunting season. Well when he finally got around 4 or 5 yrs later to getting his pilots license, he went back to the same instructor. The instructor just shook his head and dropped the pilots log books in the trash. I thought that was kinda rude!

Hey good deal on that airnav airport link, wish it was right on the 170 home page. Looking at the Petit Jean Airport, at the SW corner of the strip, in the woods, is an opening. That's our campground. The parking lot pavement wasn't layed down yet. That's the lake all around the south end.

There is one thing common in all the post. Getting prepared ahead of time for the airport you're flying too. I've a bad habit of flying there and dealing with the airport when I get there. Thanks for sharing these different methods.

[rudymantel]

Chuck, I see you're from Alexandria VA. Our daughter and her family live in Fairfax and we fly up to visit once or twice a year. We land at Manassas. Where are you based ?
Rudy

[N170CT]

Rudy,
I was just relocated here from So Cal. NI70CT is hangared at Chino California (KCNO) and I plan to go there this summer to retrieve the aircraft. That is the reason for all the discussion about navigating across the country. Curiously, I was flying out of Manassas in 1963 when it was uncontrolled and a single runway. Would be delighted to meet with you and see your aircraft sometime when you are in this area. Drop me an email message at: cthiggy@juno.com when convenient. Regards,Chuck

[GAHorn]

OK. This is not a personal criticism. The pronoun "you" does NOT mean you, Dave ..or any other particular person in present company. OK?
Now for my msg:

There's only one thing that bothers me more than a non-rated pilot flying on instruments: That would be ANY pilot (rated or not) who flys thru clouds in controlled airspace without a clearance.
That behavior is tantamount to approaching a busy intersection and disregarding all the people who are crossing on a green traffic light in front of you ...and just closing your eyes...and barging on thru the intersection like it belongs to you and God should protect you over them. In my opinion, it is equivalent to the crime of manslaughter.
Unless you've got a clearance, you are threatening not just yourself and your trusting passengers but also those innocent people who do follow the rules and who are already cleared thru that particular cloud. To disregard that regulation which requires a clearance is a crime.
If anyone ever observes such behavior they should document it and file whatever charges the law permits.

[N1478D]

OK. This is not a personal criticism. The pronoun "you" does NOT mean you, Dave ..or any other particular person in present company. OK?
Now for my msg:

There's only one thing that bothers me more than a non-rated pilot flying on instruments: That would be ANY pilot (rated or not) who flys thru clouds in controlled airspace without a clearance.
That behavior is tantamount to approaching a busy intersection and disregarding all the people who are crossing on a green traffic light in front of you ...and just closing your eyes...and barging on thru the intersection like it belongs to you and God should protect you over them. In my opinion, it is equivalent to the crime of manslaughter.
Unless you've got a clearance, you are threatening not just yourself and your trusting passengers but also those innocent people who do follow the rules and who are already cleared thru that particular cloud. To disregard that regulation which requires a clearance is a crime.
If anyone ever observes such behavior they should document it and file whatever charges the law permits.

George, am SO GLAD that you spoke up! Don't have an IFR ticket yet, but even as a VFR rated pilot thinking of someone purposely flying thru clouds ( I am guilty of falling thru them out of control so don't feel that I am as guilty ) in controlled airspace makes me feel exactly as you have described. It is such a careless act. Your integrity to speak up is appreciated.

[AR Dave]

I agree 100%!
I can't imagine anyone having the guts to do that in controlled airspace.
Scared me just looking for the end of the runway, VFR, in controlled airspace!

Actually I think it's probably very rare that someone, not rated, has gradually learned the bad habit of flying over the top and etc.. When the ceiling drops to sea level behind you, you can't get over the mountains to Lake Iliamna, gas running out, and no way out but to turn back across the Cook inlet to Homer, you will learn IFR quickly. Or you'll die! That was Traci's scariest moment, you'll have to ask her if she cared about my pedigrees at the time. But I've been getting the feeling that instructors might teach a little different up here (AK). When I finished getting my license, I was capable of flying IFR. We spent a lot of time under the hood. We also flew in the dark, and 30 mph crosswinds. He'd call me at 10:00 pm at night, and say "get down here, we've got an opportunity here". Everyone else was parking trucks in front of their planes to keep them from flipping and here we are taxing to runwy 27. Actually my scariest moments were learning x-winds with my instructor. Now, I wish we'd flown in Class C a time or two.
Bruce, what did you say it takes for the plane to be IFR. I'll talk to the guy that did my biannual about it. He can't wait to fly with me again anyway. I know for sure he doesn't teach like my instructor did, cause he just sat back saying I've never heard of that. I guess he wanted to see if I could land on this grass strip in someones yard. I zipped over it, counting 1400 ft, and he flipped. How did you measure the strip? City Boy! I didn't charge him for my biannual, but he should have split for the gas! Oh yes, since entering the Lower 48, 2.5 yrs ago, I've only found but one brief, 180 deg, turning moment to fly IFR. Still, my son appreciated me being able to get out of there without losing it. Every VFR pilot needs to be ABLE to fly IFR!
Rebel Dave

[GAHorn]

While your training and instructor's methods may have been unorthodox in some regards,...there is nothing particularly "extra-curricular" about it. Every private pilot is supposed to have received a modicum of flight training in flight "with reference to instruments". It's a requirement ...one that is tested during the Private Pilot practical test in accordance with the FAA Test Guide ....not an option that an instructor may "offer" as an added value.
Flying "IFR" implies a qualified and current instrument rated pilot operating in accordance with FAR's on a clearance. Flying in "IMC" implies a flight operating in less than VFR conditions. If that occurs in controlled airspace without a clearance, or at any time by a pilot not instrument equipped and rated and current...then it's an illegal operation. If it occured because a VFR-only pilot failed to maintain VFR then it's also a violation of law...committed by an inattentive/careless or inept pilot...not a super-pilot who performed something heroic.

[170C]

Geroge, who among us hasn't ,at some time in our flying experiences, flown through a cloud, whether it was an isolated one on a clear day (intensional or not) or gone down through a layer when we got caught on top with no hole to go through? Its not something I would do intensionally now that I am more experienced. However, my question to you, or other IFR pilots, is that if someone NOT on an IFR flight plan (VFR) was boring along and headed toward either one isolated cloud or through a deck of them and you were in the vicinity on an IFR flight plan, wouldn't you expect ATC to give you a heads up that there was conflicting traffic along your route and if they preceived it to be on or near your path & altitude, wouldn't ATC give you vectors to hopefully avoid the VFR traffic? I certainly realize none of us wants to depend upon ATC to keep us totally clear of other conflicting aircraft, whether on a IFR flt plan or while using flight following, but I would sure hope some controller would see this and advise. I am just asking for my own information--not disagreeing with you or anyone else regarding the stupidity of flying into a cloud while not under ATC.

[GAHorn]

If an aircraft is operating IFR and another aircraft is in the immediate vicinity appearing to pose a threat...and if the controller has time...he will most likely mention it. (But if I'm in IMC and get such a warning you know what I'll do about it? Nothing! Because if I've got a clearance, then no one else will be in that cloud with me...therefore it must be an error in the other aircraft's transponder/encoder.) But what about the VFR airplane that is transmitting a false altitude? Or isn't broadcasting a transponder code at all? Or what if the controller is busy? What if he's working another aircraft on another sector or frequency?

The ATC system is not dependent upon the vigilance of an air traffic controller. It depends upon a system of operating clearances, and rules that keep VFR aircraft out of the IMC which IFR aircraft are cleared into. Controllers usually have no idea if an aircraft on an IFR clearance is in IMC or not unless he happens to ask, and even so it wouldn't mean the aircraft remains in IMC continuously. Therefore a busy controller may not bother to observe every aircraft in the area because...the controller believes no other aircraft out there would violate the rule and be operating IMC without his specific clearance to do so. Therefore a VFR aircraft in the area will not be perceived as an immenent threat to an IFR aircraft.

Did you know that if you are VFR and on "flight following" that the controller has absolutely NO RESPONSIBILITY to tell you about other aircraft? (Much less keep you separated from them.) Did you know that an IFR aircraft...not in IMC...has the same responsibilities to see and avoid other aircraft that the VFR aircraft has? The controller is NOT REQUIRED to keep IFR aircraft in VFR conditions separated from other VFR aircraft. He may point it out to the IFR airplane...or he may not.

In other words, ... an aircraft issued an IFR clearance is only guaranteed seperation from other aircraft in IMC...if the other aircraft IS ALSO on an IFR clearance! Clearances do not protect an IFR aircraft from mid-air collisions with VFR aircraft. And if you think it's no big deal to occasionally get into a cloud because you have a gyro horizon and you're just going to do it for a moment...then you are not being diligent or honest with yourself or your passengers or your fellow pilots, you are a danger to the flying public and should be permanently barred from flying airplanes.

OK. So there you are, and you screwed up, and you need to get down thru an undercast. What do you do?
Well, if you're instrument qualified and equipped.....you simply call ATC and get a clearance!
If you're NOT so qualified and equipped....you simply call ATC and get a clearance! Yep. That's all. (You don't have to tell them your qualifications, and although the old-time ATC's would ask you if you were "equipped/qualified" ...that's no longer done. And you don't have to tell them. Just ask for a clearance to descend to VFR conditions, and when you're there...just say "Cancel my IFR". At least that way you'll not be endangering other airplanes and you'll also be more likely not to kill yourself by hitting someone that may be in there already!

The ATC system depends upon all of us to have the integrity and respect for others to follow the rules.

[AR Dave]

Good Deal! Will be a great discussion for Petit Jean. I'm kinda getting confused about this ATC stuff. I didn't think I'd ever been in ATC but once. Don't sound like them fellars can be trusted to do anything anyway. Might er might not tell you your crashing into another plane? I sure as heck ain't going to trust them to tell me when I'm about to hit the ground then. When I want to come down, I just look at the ground elevation and come down about 1000 ft above the greener shaded area's. If I don't break clear, then I'll try somewhere else. This method works much better with your wife looking down out the bubble windows. Bubble windows should be part of every IFR pilots package. I'm looking into taking some more modicum of flight training to get my IMC rating though, now that you're scaring me with stories of these crazy pilots in the lower 48. Where's that poll about Flying being safer than Driving? I appreciate the warning a hole heap about the ATC, I'll be watchin them fellars to try and trick me if I see one. Good discussion!

[GAHorn]

That's great, Dave! Get the training...you'll love it. 3/4 of the time even when it's a clear day I'll file and fly an IFR flight plan because it's the lazy-man's way to get there. I don't have to look out for restricted airspace, or Temporary Flight Restrictions, or control towers. I don't have to look up frequencies...ATC gives 'em to me as I fly along. I don't have to check changing weather conditions...ATC gives it to me. I don't have to go WAY 'ROUND big airports and BIG AIRSPACE...I'm cleared thru it. (Saves time and gas...exact opposite to what most VFR pilots think.)
IFR = Instrument Flight Rules (IF you're not following the Rules...you ain't following the RULES. Those rules require you to be equipped, qualified, and on a clearance.)
IMC - Instrument Meteological Conditions (Flyin' in the BLIND....something really dangerous unless in accordance with IFR.)

[GAHorn]

Here's another consideration in regards to your question Frank.

If an IFR aircraft is flying along on a clearance in IMC...and if a controller happens to notice another aircraft nearby....(the controller having no idea whether or not either aircraft is actually in a cloud or not...)... And the controller tells the IFR aircraft about the unidentified aircraft at "twelve o'clock, 1-mile, same altitude, opposite direction of flight'...
What would you expect the IFR aircraft to do? He's on a clearance with a specific course and altitude and has no authorization/clearance to deviate from that course/altitude. Guess what he'll likely do? Nothing. He'll naturally/hopefully assume that the unidentified aircraft is transmitting erroneous data (if the aircraft is transpoding data at all. How many times have you been caught in the wrong place or at the wrong altitude so you just turned your transponder or encoder off?)