Follow-on to Handheld GPS

[N170CT]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
As a corollary to the recent Handheld GPS inquiry may I ask if anyone out in 170 land is using/or has any experience with handheld/computer moving map displays??? Recently purchased a laptop expressly for the purpose of navigating across the country using a GPS signal and a moving map program. Jeppesen appears to have stopped selling their Flite Map software and that leaves basically two systems, i.e. Destination Direct and RMS. Any comments/ideas on these two systems or any other would be appreciated. Regards, Chuck

[GAHorn]

I've got a fantastic hand-held computer that will do all the navigation you'd ever need and I'll sell it to you cheap! It's a model E6B! (Hardly used!)

[AR Dave]

I've have a Garmin panel mount 150, which I love. However, I got it just about the time maps were coming out. The next model had it, which allowed me to get a discount on this one, but it was still expensive. I didn't need a map in Alaska, but now I'm in a dangerous environment. I'm having a little problem getting oriented sometimes when coming into an airport I havn't seen before. The GPS gets me right to it, but I have to figure out were I'm at in relationship to which end of what. This is probably lack of piloting skills, I'm used to rivers, or mountains, or other landmarks. Any tricks on how some of you get oriented on approach. I've been wondering if there is a handheld map that attaches to my Garmin GPS, but then I think - pilots have been flying in to diff airports for decades, I just need to learn how to approach an airport. Where it gets me is like Little Rock or FT Smith, where they want to direct me from way out and big planes are zipping in and out and so forth. I'm afraid I'm going to runover one of those 747's or something searching for the numbers on the runway that parallel's 18 different hwys that look like runways.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Dave I have a Garmin 155 which doesn't have a map either. I use a Garmin Pilot III if I want a map display. I'm not sure the map would help in orienting you to the runway from far out. When you get close enough that the GPS displays the runway your darn near on top if it.

What I do is look at my DG which of course is a full compass card. Hopefully you'll have it set matching your heading. Now looking at it visualize the runway heading and how it relates to your heading.

Sometimes when there are multiple runways by looking at them I can't determine which one I want. I then look at my DG and figure out what I'd have to do to turn be on the same heading as the runway and some times I actually turn to that heading momentarily. Usually I can then identify which runway I want. If I'm coming in from the opposite end of the runway then I visualize or turn the the reciprical of the runway heading. This of course would be my downwind heading. It just takes practice.

[GAHorn]

If you are approaching an airport runway served by a straight-in instrument approach then merely navigate to the final approach fix (FAF) of that approach and then turn toward the airport and you'll be on about a 5 mile final to that runway. The course from the FAF to the runway should be within a few degrees of the runway heading to be certain it's not a circling approach, ...or the final approach may not be in alignment with the runway.
But back to basics: You can always simply fly directly to the center of the airport at least 1,000' above pattern altitude, and look down at the windsock, the runway layouts, and then enter the downwind pattern from above. This will also give you a chance to observe any other traffic, the traffic pattern direction of flow, etc. etc.
Another method is to listen to AWOS, etc. and determine which runway is in use (or UNICOM or CTAF radio traffic can give this information). Fly directly to the airport (again, 1,000' above traffic pattern altitude) and visually identify that runway, then turn to the reciprocal heading of the rwy and fly outbound while descending to the downwind leg. (If Rwy 9 is in use, then from overhead you can turn to the reciprocal (270 degrees) and enter downwind.)
Just remember, FAR's REQUIRE that unless otherwise specified ALL TURNS in the traffic pattern MUST BE TO THE LEFT when entering traffic for landing. There is NO LEGAL WAY to enter a right base leg or a right downwind leg at any airport unless that airport has published a right hand traffic pattern.

[AR Dave]

Yep I'm glad I asked such a basic question. Thanks!
George I'm not legal for IFR. Flying to midfield and looking at the windsock is exactly what I've always done. And in Alaska make sure it's healthy and not torn and wrapped around the pole (that led to my scariest moment come to think of it). I was afraid to go mid field at Ft Smith because of the big planes and Control Tower.
Bruce I do need to use that DG more as a navigational tool. Honestly I forget about it until I'm about to fly through the clouds. For that I set it to stay straight on course, if not I tend to turn right. But picturing the runway layout and the direction I'm flying on the DG will work for me. I'll start practicing that locally and get in the habit.

[zero.one.victor]

I've got a fantastic hand-held computer that will do all the navigation you'd ever need and I'll sell it to you cheap! It's a model E6B! (Hardly used!)

To be more accurate, George, an E6B will do all the navigation CALCULATIONS you'd ever need, not the navigation itself.
Dave, what I used to do in my student cross-country days was to draw a little pictograph of the airport runways on my cross-country logsheet, oriented north-up. Then I'd draw a little airplane, on the approximate flightpath I'd be on, inbound to the airport as per my flight planning. Made it a lot easier to orient my location & direction of travel with the runway(s). Of course, if the tower vectors you around or otherwise directs you to modify your approach to something unexpected, you have to adapt your location on the little non-moving map display you've drawn.
Part of why a moving map display (GPS) is so handy is that it visually shows you where you are in relation to the airport. If it's a paved strip,then the sectional should show the runway orientation-- so just compare that to your airplane on the moving map display & you should have an easy time figuring out relative orientation of the runways.
I used to (try to) use the 45' & 90' hashmarks on the modern style DG in my old 150 to get oriented on the proper bearing for a 45' entry, etc- it's kind of a pain in the butt. Since you can buy a Garmin Pilot 3 for about $380 nowadays, I'd just go that route.

Eric

[170C]

Dave, I too have and sometimes still do have some difficulty at unfamiliar airports, especially those with multiple runways. What the other guys have told you is good and I too use the DG method Bruce mentioned to help visualize the setup. This works pretty well. Sometimes in bad haze or other poor visibility it is still somewhat confusing. I still use an old method that most would laugh at, but it works for me. I make up 3" X 5" cards for airports I intend to land on and jot down vrs frequencies, apt identifier, runway heading, etc. At the bottom of that data if there is more than one runway, I will draw a small runway sketch with runway headings. This seems to help me. Also if needed, don't be shy about requesting assistance from the tower or approach. Its their job to help you and most controllers that are worthy of their job will gladly help you.

[N170CT]

Gentlemen,
Thanks a million for your responses. I still have my E6B which I initially purchased about 40 years ago. Started flying in 1956. Now that I am a senior (Where's my discount??) citizen, I am becoming more lazy and keen to try all the new toys out there. Though I carry both a panel mount GPS and handheld GPS, I continue to navigate via the old "finger on the map" in the unlikely event both should fail. Just thought I would query the membership for ideas I have not considered since there truly is an immense amount of experience here. Chuck

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Chuck looking at your orginal post do you mean a hand held computero or PDA like a Palm or IPAC or do you mean a larger portable personal computer.

I had a friend who had a IPAc with a GPS and Anywhere map software.
He bought a Garmin dedicated GPS moving map because the IPAC or the software was always freezing.

I have another friend who has several GPS units that plug into his Notebook where he has software and maps that he has downloaded which in effect give him a moving map display. We tryed flying will he held his computer in my 170 just for fun but it was quite cumbersome.

Another friend actually built a computer and screen into his Lancair 4P panel which displayed a moving map. Don't know what software or even it he still uses it. I'm sure the computer is still there as it did much more including audio warnings and reciting his check list.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Chuck looking at your original post do you mean a hand held computer or PDA like a Palm or IPAC or do you mean a larger portable personal computer.

I had a friend who had a IPAc with a GPS and Anywhere map software.
He bought a Garmin dedicated GPS moving map because the IPAC or the software was always freezing.

I have another friend who has several GPS units that plug into his Notebook where he has software and maps that he has downloaded which in effect give him a moving map display. We tried flying will he held his computer in my 170 just for fun but it was quite cumbersome.

Another friend actually built a computer and screen into his Lancair 4P panel which displayed a moving map. Don't know what software or even it he still uses it. I'm sure the computer is still there as it did much more including audio warnings and reciting his check list.

[N170CT]

Bruce,

I was asking about a laptop/notebook computer which (as you observe) is definitely cumbersome. But I will be crossing the country alone (no autopilot), there will be space on the right seat, probably just enough for my Toshiba and one E6B to make George feel better. Do you know what moving map software your friends were using and if they were satisfied with that system?? Regards, Chuck

[HA]

If we're talking maps here, I bought a couple of Dell PDA's that we run the MountainScope software on, terrifically detailed terrain and aviation databse moving map. You can set it to display terrain in yellow and red just like TAWS, which is exactly what I got it for. We have a couple planes that are on projects in the mountains (Reno and Boise) and I wanted the guys to have a good idea of what was around them etc, especially during night IFR icing ops. info on their website, http://www.pcavionics.com.

The whole setup (PDA, software, GPS that plugs right into the PDA) ran us about $900 which isn't bad. That was 2 and a half years ago, now the newest Garmin 296 can do pretty much the same thing with a little less hassle (dedicated mission so no computer tomfoolery) but it's still more expensive.

If we're just talking E6B's, get an electronic one from Sporty's. Cheap and easy. I enjoy figuring out my Mach number during those long slow cross country flights

[mvivion]

Chuck,

I use laptops all the time. We have used a program called Power Map. It's expensive, though. Specifically designed for natural resource database acquisition work. We now use a program one of our folks developed for us. I believe that Wisconson DNR also has such a program that they'll make available.

National Geographic TOPO is a great program for a PC, and would work very well as a background map, but you'd still need a shell program which would position the airplane on the map as you move along.

All of these programs use USGS quad maps, NOT aeronautical charts, so they would not portray aeronautical features like airports.

I think AOPA has a mapping program, check their website.

My experience with PC's in the cockpit (and especially PDA's) is that they are not very stable compared to aviation GPS units. There is always a chance that the computer will crash at a bad time.

PDA's (and no, I haven't tried Anywhere Map) are in the same ball park. If you allow the battery to go dead on many of these, their programs have to be restored by a backup battery. My experience with these things and this is mirrored by several others, is that they frequently dump their brains. When this happens, you have to restore all the programs, generally by synching with a laptop.

Its hard to beat the current generation of handheld GPS units, both for reliability and function.

But, if you are lugging your laptop along anyway, and you want something to look at on your cross country, try some of the programs and see what you think.

Mike Vivion

[GAHorn]

I had a friend who had a IPAc with a GPS ...

I have another friend who has several GPS units ...

Another friend actually built a computer and screen ...
.

Bruce, is that true? Do you really have three friends?