Scale 170 Drawing for Turbocad?

[N1478D]

Just purchased TurboCAD - looks like a fairly steep learning curve. Going to spend some spare time designing a hangar home. Does anyone have a scale plan view of the 170? I know the basics are given in different publications like wing span, length, etc. Might have to get the tape measure out and just do it.

[Harold Holiman]

Remember, a hanger can never be too big. When I built my current house I built my garage 36' x 33' and can now just barely get two cars in it and my pickup can just get halfway in my former RV shed. My hanger now has to hold my airplane and one of my cars plus lots of other junk. When I build my hanger home on my Arkansas fly-in lot, I'm going to make the hanger at least half again as big as I think it should be. IMHO.

Harold H
N92CP

[N1478D]

Good Point Harold!

Thinking I will design two. One, just big enough and the other a luxury model. Both will employ harvesting rain water, solar panels, solar collectors for hot water, and thermal mass for heating/cooling. Very interested in the insulating concrete forms construction. They stand up well to the storms here in North Texas, just about fire proof, and very well insulated for heat/cold and sound, and are well suited for large spans. Radiant floor heating for the home and hangar would be nice too.

[AR Dave]

I'll never live in another house without radiant floor heat. Tired of dry air, dust, allergies, etc.. You can do most of the installation yourself.

[zero.one.victor]

Remember, a hanger can never be too big.
..............................................
Harold H
N92CP

This was the first thought too, Joe, after reading your post. If possible, I'd go for at least a 50' X 50' box. A friend of mine went into hock to buy one that size, and everyone (including him!) thought he was having delusions of grandeur. Now, a couple years later, he can't imagine having one any smaller!
Besides airplanes, there's cars, motorcycles, boats, tractors,yada yada.....

Eric

[lowNslow]

Besides airplanes, there's cars, motorcycles, boats, tractors,yada yada.....

Eric

That's the problem, the bigger you make it, the more stuff seem to accumulate.

[N1478D]

Besides airplanes, there's cars, motorcycles, boats, tractors,yada yada.....

Eric

That's the problem, the bigger you make it, the more stuff seem to accumulate.

Yep, sure would be nice to be a minimalist - smaller footprint on the planet and less to take care of. The bigger hangar might be easier to sell though. And, would need a place for that twin Beech if someone needed to give it away. Think the plan will start off with something the size of a typical T-hangar and a small house/apartment. Wonder why hangars are built so tall? Understand the large hangars with tall tailed airplanes being inside. Wonder what the problem would be with a hangar just tall enough for a 170?

[4583C]

Eric[/quote]

Wonder why hangars are built so tall? Understand the large hangars with tall tailed airplanes being inside. Wonder what the problem would be with a hangar just tall enough for a 170?[/quote]
Joe
Go ahead and build it tall enough for anything that will fit the horizontal dimensions. 14 or 16 foot walls add little to the initial cost and will make it easier to sell if you ever want or need to. The taller walls would allow for a two story apartment or at least a nice storage area above. Another possibility would be one of those neat lifts like George Sandy had in his hanger at Tehachapi. That wouldn't work with my 11 foot walls unless it was a really short homebuilt that I was trying to lift. I was in a hangar the other day where a guy is rebuilding a Stearman. It's a really nice multi airplane hangar but the trusses are only about an inch over the upper wing. They may have to take the wheels off and roll it under the door on some really low dollies to get it out. Paul

[zero.one.victor]

...................... Wonder what the problem would be with a hangar just tall enough for a 170?

A couple guys I know at my airport built lofts in their T-hangars, above where the tail of the airplane sits. One guy was very careful to build his tall enough to clear the tail on a Stinson 108, which he figured was the tallest plane he'd ever want to put in there. the other guy built his loft somewhat lower. When they went to sell their hangars a couple years later, they each realized that they had reduced their pool of potential buyers by more than half, cuz only a taildragger will fit in the hangar under the loft-- nosedragger tails are all too high.

Eric

[GAHorn]

A couple things come to mind, Joe, as I read your comments.
I remember my own considerations when I built my hangar, which is 50 X 50 X 16 (eaves) with a 44' X 14' door.

Firstly,....I'd never do another weld-up design. I could have finished the job much faster with a bolt-together because at the time I didn't know diddely about welding....which meant I didn't save any money because I had to hire out all my welding. It also means I have no engineering guarantees (for whatever that's worth. I've already witnessed 75 mph gusts and horizontal 1" hail with no damage. But if ever you consider taking in a renter, hangar-keepers insurance may be involved, and local bldg. codes may be also.) A bolt-together actually would have come out about the same money all considering. Plan on about $5K for erection. (So what else did you expect? You ever have one that didn't potentially cost a bunch?)

Next,.... the vast majority of metal bldg designs have the girts (those C or Z-purlins which go around the circumference of the walls) outside the uprights. This steals about a whole foot of floorspace all the way around your bldg. My hangar is my own design, which although pretty conventional, has a couple of important-to-me features such as my girts being with-IN the uprights. This gave me that 1-foot of floorspace back, and allowed a wider door and more floorspace on the same footprint slab.
Also, when you do your slab, make certain you specify the quality of concrete. I"d recommend "6-sack" strength. Houses are commonly "4-sack" and is sometimes used by contractors when they know they're dealing with an unknowlegeable buyer or think they're building for a lightweight vehicle/aircraft. Additional cement in the mix is not that much more expensive, considering that the majority of cost is the basic mix, re-bar, site prep, and labor. Put a central drain in your slab. Have them slope from outer edge towards the center at least 1" slope, and then within a 2 foot circle around the drain, have it slope additionally another inch....like a birdbath. Lead the under-slab drain away from the bldg, downhill, and/or into a sand-filled evaporation pallet. If ever you have a hazardous liquid leak,...it'll get it out of the hangar fast and avoid EPA lawyers (which I know you like to hang out with, but .... you really need to quit spending so much of your time with attorneys and spread your social calendar among others types.)

Next, .... When planning your slab...don't forget the ramp leading into the main door....and don't forget an additional personel door somewhere near the rear of the hangar....and the steps leading up to that door. It's cheaper to include those items while the slab is being poured than call them back out later on. Also, don't forget to include an outside perimeter metal sheeting ledge in your slab. Tres-Hermano's concrete company may not be familiar with this important, but simple feature of a metal bldg. slab.
Also think about whether or not you want sub-floor electrical, plumbing, toilet, etc. before you contract for a slab.

Next, .... Think about insulating your inside walls of the metal bldg. I don't think the chicken-wire method is necessary. Modern materials have reinforcing in their vapor barrier fabric. Avoid "blown" insulation, unless your local fire code requires it on the structural steel. Why insulate? Because it'll really cut down on the radiant heat problem on sunny days, and it'll also cut down on heating/cooling costs of the home you intend to include within the bldg. (if any.) It also makes a cold day, much better inside the bldg, even without addt'l heat.

Next,....Consider what type of main door you want. Bi-fold? Hydraulic swing-out? Sliders? Unless you really want a powered door, or unless you have real-estate/lot-size constraints...I'd recommend simple sliding doors if you intend to install them yourself. The drawback to those doors are that if the door/bldg. faces north (not good in Texas) or a local storm or strong front blows in it will tend to inflate the bldg. and the doors can be lifted out of their tracks and fall into/outward from the bldg. The tracks can also fill with snow/ice and make them immobile.
If you want a powered door,....Some folks like the hydraulic (Hydro-swing is one brand name), because they are somewhat cheaper than bi-fold, but I really have a distaste for them. If you ever see them in even a light wind while fully open....you'll head for the bomb shelter. They really want to fly, shake, rattle, and roll. The hydraulic weren't that impressive for me either.
Same problem with bi-folds. They do not llike being worked/open in wind. Another major drawback to bi-folds is the amount of head-room you lose in the doorway.....up to 3 feet in some designs. The so-called "no lost headroom" models are misleading. They acutally mount OUTside of the bldg. And they also place a lot of strain on the bldg, and require lots of structural reinforcement. (An important consideration in the bldg. design stage, and while your putting your bldg up.)
This will sound like a sales-pitch,....and I guess it is....but you should come see the custom overhead door I designed, and built here for my hangar. Saved thousands of dollars, high winds don't affect it, and simple operation using commonly found items and ordinary house-current. It also only needs 8-inches of headroom.

Also, .....consider the size of it VS the eventual sales value of your bldg. My 44 X 14 opening will not allow lots of twins like some C-414's or 421's which need exactly 44', or if winglet equipped, 45'. And the tails of many twins now in private operations frequently stand above 13'...so again,..the door... Then, as Eric points out...lots of other equipment are stored in hangars. A favorite among those who near retirement-toy ownership...is RV's. The standard max. road height of a large RV is 12'7". So, you'll need your OPEN door to clear at least that. And if you want to store an RV (or eventually sell to someone who does) then you'll want to consider a rear, overhead, roller/rollup door,...which is always good for cross-ventilation anyway when you're working in there during the summer.

Next,....Consider the type of interior lighting you'll want. Flourescent is a nice clean, white, bright, light with low electric bills....but I've always found them high-maintenance. Failed light-tubes, ballasts, makes them expensive again despite the electric bill, and poor start-up in cold weather is irritating. Commercial halide systems are expensive ($200 for a single replacement bulb...not including the fixture), and mercury-vapor, high-pressure sodium are a goofy color and difficult/tiring to work under after a while. Halogen throws off dangerous UV rays and are a fire hazard. (Personally, I ended up just installing common incandescent, ...lots of 100-Watt light bulbs....and am happy. But you need to consider what you want.)

Floor-based heating is virtually out of the question in a hangar due to settling gasoline fumes, so if you plan on a heated hangar, you should think about overhead radiant or forced-air furnace types. Speaking of environmental control.....think also about fire protection like high-volume water spray or deluge systems. Most private owners don't have such systems. I don't, but in some locales you might be faced with zoning issues and bldg. codes.

I used "galvalume" roof panels for max reflectivity, but whatever you use, consider what roof pitch you wish, and why you want it. 12-1 is the most common in the South, but it wouldn't look right next to my home, so I elected for a 12-2. (Twelve feet horizontal to 2 feet vertical slope.) Metal bldgs are usually capable of up to 12-4, and that can be good in high snow-fall areas to keep the roof clear of excess weight, but.....it also makes it exceedingly difficult (and maybe more expensive due to labor safety issues) to construct and dangerous to work on. Hangar roofs don't look that tall until you're up there looking back down...and that can be pretty intimidating. I know. I put my entire roof on myself, and spent considerable time musing about my fear of heights. Metal roof panels are pretty slippery when dry, you can slide right off them even when sitting down in blue jeans (think about playground slides) , ....and they're downright deadly in the early morning dew.

You'll want to consider skylights. These are semi-transparent panels that allow natural lighting to enter the bldg, which is very dark with everything closed. You'll want ambient light when the electricity fails, or you just want to enter, grab a tool and leave, or otherwise don't want to actually light up the place. (Like sneak out for a beer and escape honey-do lists at night without giving away your location with lighting.) Seriously, you should consider where you want those skylights. I recommend against in the roof because they are a hail/rain-leak problem and you and your workers can step/fall right through them. They'll support absolutely no weight.
I installed mine in the sidewalls. (Mine are simple panels just like the metal ones, except translucent, and replace four ordinary wall panels.) You might want to consider simply installing shorter-length ones around the upper eaves. That way the are less susceptible to breakage and also aren't easly vandalized if you live in a populous area.
Don't forget to think about roof-peak ventilation. I used the 12' long mechanically openable/closable type. Two of them, one for each 25' of roof length.

Speaking of heights,....don't forget that some day you'll have to get up there to replace light bulbs, and extension ladders are NO GOOD for hangars. For one, they have no sure place to lean them in the middle of the hangar-span...and when they fall (and eventually they will fall...they are unwieldy when extended and will get away from you) ....they fall on airplanes. Start shopping around for surplus scaffolding. The take-down types are best because they store against the wall compactly when not in use. Get a set of casters and walkboards also. It'll be a good investment for a hangar owner. A good set of scaffolding is a good group-purchase item for a community of hangar owners. I paid $1K for a slightlyused stack-set of 3 tiers with walkboards and casters. If you start shopping early, you might do better than that, but the going rate for a good, used set is about $250 per tier including 1 walkboard. And you're gonna need them during construction anyway if you do it yourself, so don't waste money renting them without a rental-purchase agreement.

A good company I enjoyed dealing with for a bolt-up design is in your backyard, Rhino Steel bldgs. in Denton. They gave me the best bid and delivery schedule for a solid design, and were educational and pleasant. They ship all over, and they'll provide slab measurements for mounting studs for the bldg (which should be placed when the slab is poured. There are after-slab, epoxy systems, but it's better to include the tie-down bolts inherently in the slab, and you'll need those fixtures and measurements before the concrete work.)

There's more, like red-oxide primer treatment for the structure, etc., but I'll quit now. There's enough to digest already. Call me or better yet,...come visit!

P.S. You've seen my hangar. I"ve got about $30K in it not including my own labor of course. Virtually identical hangars 4 miles away (with fewer amenities) cost their owners $65-$75K.
P.SS. R-panel metal panels come in 3' widths. A 50 X 50 hangar will require that end panels be overlapped by 1 foot, and the roof panels are not allowed to overlap due to trapped condensation, so they have to be cut on site and the excess thrown away. So why did I build a 50 X 50? Why didn't I do a 51 X 51? Doh! Oh, Well. Next time.

[zero.one.victor]

All good points, George, except I disagree with you about infloor heating. Sure, there might be some gas fumes in the hangar, but so what? Infloor heating in a hangar is usually hot-water pipes in the slab, supplied by a HW heater or boiler which can be located remotely-- a good spot would be in a lean-to outside the hangar proper. A good place to also locate your (noisy) air compressor.
If anything, a furnace/space heater or radiant heat system mounted up high in the hangar would probably be more dangerous. They're usually natural gas or propane fired-- now we're talking open flames in a potentially gas-fume environment.
Just for comparison, an existing 50 X 50 box on my airport would probably cost a guy about $75K-- approx $30/square foot-- to buy, & that's on leased ground with (currently) about $1,250/year ground lease costs. On a 50-year lease, subject to a CPI-based increase yearly. So that $30K cost sounds pretty reasonable. Of course, that's with alot of your own (free) labor, right George?

Eric

[N1478D]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Didn't make it clear enough, it's not going to be a metal building. The construction will be ICF ( Insulating Concrete Forms ) "ICFs give you all the benefits that have made concrete the material of choice for home building worldwide: Solid, lasting construction that resists the ravages of fire, wind, and Father Time. But ICFs do plain concrete one better – or rather, two better – by giving you two built-in layers of foam insulation."
http://www.cement.org/homes

The radiant floor heating will be supplied by solar collectors on the roof, no fire problem there - liquid is used instead of electricity. And, when the sun is not out, like Eric says there will be an outside boiler to provide heat.

Day time lighting will be provided by solar tubes. Night time lighting will be a low energy requirement system. Not sure what yet. There will be a 12 or 24 volt system and a 110 volt system using an inverter tied to the solar panels and maybe a wind generator. This hybrid system will have a propane generator for backup, for charging the battery bank of the solar system, and for times of high energy use.
http://www.solatubetexas.com/sola.htm

The roof will be used to harvest rainwater so reflective materials are probably out. I will probably use a radiant material under the roof to reflect heat back.

The hangar doors are a real question mark. They need to seal very well when closed. I like to keep things/systems as simple as possible, so a lot of research is needed here. Both the living and hangar areas will access a clerestory for natural cooling. The structure will be oriented to make use of passive cooling/heating. There will be lower vents to allow cool air in and the hot air will escape out the windows of the clerestory, etc with storage mass to collect the heat in winter.

The drain in the floor would be handy at times, but not sure that I want that opening to the outside.

Planning on having RV hookups outside for friends/visitors and probably living quarters during construction. Not sure yet if RV storage will be inside, or a carport type structure along the side.

In visiting with a hangar owner/builder at Hicks, his first hangar home had cracks in the concrete floor after a couple of years. So, his second hangar had twice the thickness of concrete and no problems with cracks so far. Since the slab is going to be part of the heating/cooling system ( radiant and mass ), more research needed here too.

This is going to be such a custom building that resale could be an issue but I agree that I would not want to eliminate nose draggers and larger airplanes. Not planning on selling it, but one never knows what life changes will happen.

This is a very interesting topic to me, hope it's not boring a whole bunch of people. Any input is very well received and desired. Just in the planning and drawing stage now so changes are easy. Thinking in the hangar lounge area that an efficient wood stove would be very enjoyable.

[GAHorn]

I didn't realize the sophistication that Joe was looking for in a hangar/home, so my comments may not be applicable to his plans. I was commenting on a standard metal/I-beam hangar. Now that I understand the type construction to which Joe is referring, his thoughts make a lot more sense. (I forgot, he specializes in ownership of immovable objects.)
The floor level heaters I was commenting on were indeed of standard elect/gas/propane and that is why I recommended a ceiling mounted system. Gas/propane would not pose a hazard in that location....it's a standard method for hangars and warehouses and is usually vented. But, yeah Eric, ...up NAWTH....in-slab plumbed heat is nice.

[N1478D]

Not sure about the sophistication, but there will be a fridg in the hangar with Becks in it George. After you race the hangar/home with that airplane of yours you can come in and have a Beck. Win, Lose, or Tie!

The other quality that is of interest is staying away from the chemical outgassing products like most carpets, plywoods, etc. Also thinking the inner walls will use metal studs.

Sure have had fun landing at different airparks and visiting with hangar/home owners. This research will have to continue with more landings and exploring. Tough job, but someone has to do it.

[GAHorn]

Hmmmn. Now if you can find a way for your job (or business) to require the relocation....do you suppose the search would be a write-off?