I tried to post earlier so if this is a repeat I will apologize now. My parking brakes were disconnected before I got my plane (170a) so I am wondering if there is a better way of hooking them up without worrying about locking them up inadvertenly. I also would like to know if the bracket that holds the lower rudder bearing can be welded? If not, who might have one, though I will start calling some of the vendors listed on this site. I think I might be looking at a crack, also, what is that bracket called? It supports the bellcrank for the rudder. Thanks,
Phillip
Bracket and Brakes
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Are you talking about the hinge for the rudder? Or are you talking about a channel, or a rib? The latter supports the bellcrank. The former contains the bearing that allows the rudder to pivot, and is identical both upper and lower, PN 033119 and I have one available. (I do not believe welding is an appropriate repair for this item.)
There is no method to re-activate the parking brake that is safe, in my opinion (at least without completely re-designing the system to use a hydraulic parking brake-valve.) No only should the parking brake be disabled in a 170 (and for that matter in all single Cessnas, but especially the taildraggers)....but your parking brake hardware on top of the master cylinders should be completely removed. It is that hardware, specifically the parking brake levers and springs that should be removed because it is THEY that catch on the firewall/blanket and lock up the brakes in a strong crosswind when the rudder is shoved fully forward. The subsequent landing with the parking brake engaged on one or both wheels is spectacular (and expensive.)
Again,...just to be CLEAR.... Disconnecting the parking brake control cable does NOT solve the problem. The entire hardware set (levers/springs) on the master cylinders associated with the parking brake system must be removed.
There is no method to re-activate the parking brake that is safe, in my opinion (at least without completely re-designing the system to use a hydraulic parking brake-valve.) No only should the parking brake be disabled in a 170 (and for that matter in all single Cessnas, but especially the taildraggers)....but your parking brake hardware on top of the master cylinders should be completely removed. It is that hardware, specifically the parking brake levers and springs that should be removed because it is THEY that catch on the firewall/blanket and lock up the brakes in a strong crosswind when the rudder is shoved fully forward. The subsequent landing with the parking brake engaged on one or both wheels is spectacular (and expensive.)
Again,...just to be CLEAR.... Disconnecting the parking brake control cable does NOT solve the problem. The entire hardware set (levers/springs) on the master cylinders associated with the parking brake system must be removed.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
To be completely in compliance with the rule, it's necessary placard it as "INOP". (The standard FAA MEL does not list a parking brake as required equipment.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
-
Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
I doubt Cessna developed an MEL for the 170. The FAA doesn't do it. You could do it and have it approved by the FAA for your aircraft, good luck.
Not sure what MEL George is talking about.
Not sure what MEL George is talking about.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
MEL = Minimum Equipment List
See FAR 91.213 "Inoperative instruments and equpment". (a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met: (1) An approved Minimum Equipment List exists for that aircraft.
MEL's are required for all aircraft. In lieu of an approved "operator's" MEL, the FAA has a generic one that applies to all aircraft and may be used as a basis to develop your own, should you choose to do so. Contact your FSDO for a copy. You should use that MEL until approval for an operator developed list is obtained. (not especially worthwhile for most operators. This is usually done by commercial operators to allow continued operation until repairs can be made, or until a mx base is reached.) The FAA MEL does not list a parking brake, so if installed it must be operational or disabled/placarded.
MEL's list all equipment that is required to be operational for flight in specified conditions. For example: For night VFR, Navigational position lights must be operational. Cigar lighter is not required. Therefore, if your aircraft has a Cigar lighter, it must be either operational, or secured and placarded as INOP.
(The above is the best ruling I have been able to get from my SAT FSDO. There is some disagreement among various FSDO's as to whether an approved MEL is required for disabling a non-specified system. I am presently discussing the possibility of TIC170A obtaining approval for such an MEL for all our members to use. I'll post results as soon as I get them.)
See FAR 91.213 "Inoperative instruments and equpment". (a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met: (1) An approved Minimum Equipment List exists for that aircraft.
MEL's are required for all aircraft. In lieu of an approved "operator's" MEL, the FAA has a generic one that applies to all aircraft and may be used as a basis to develop your own, should you choose to do so. Contact your FSDO for a copy. You should use that MEL until approval for an operator developed list is obtained. (not especially worthwhile for most operators. This is usually done by commercial operators to allow continued operation until repairs can be made, or until a mx base is reached.) The FAA MEL does not list a parking brake, so if installed it must be operational or disabled/placarded.
MEL's list all equipment that is required to be operational for flight in specified conditions. For example: For night VFR, Navigational position lights must be operational. Cigar lighter is not required. Therefore, if your aircraft has a Cigar lighter, it must be either operational, or secured and placarded as INOP.
(The above is the best ruling I have been able to get from my SAT FSDO. There is some disagreement among various FSDO's as to whether an approved MEL is required for disabling a non-specified system. I am presently discussing the possibility of TIC170A obtaining approval for such an MEL for all our members to use. I'll post results as soon as I get them.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Rudder Hinge
My old illustrated parts catalog lists this part as a rudder hinge p/n-0510109 but the couple of folks I talked to did not have the cross reference. It is the steel bracket that holds the rudder bearing and is riveted to the lower tail above the tailwheel spring. Yes, I am still looking for one. Taking quotes!
I was wondering if you could apply a scuff plate to prevent the snagging of the parking brakes or are the tolerances such that they would increase the possibility this action. I guess I need to keep those 10 lb. chalks in the back for c.g. and peace of mind after all. Thanks,
Phillip
I was wondering if you could apply a scuff plate to prevent the snagging of the parking brakes or are the tolerances such that they would increase the possibility this action. I guess I need to keep those 10 lb. chalks in the back for c.g. and peace of mind after all. Thanks,
Phillip
Re: Rudder Hinge
Forget the scuff plate, Phillip. Disconnect your parking brake, and remove the levers. (A scuff plate will STILL lift the levers which will lock them in the parked position. It's not a matter of being snagged. It's a matter of them colliding with the firewall and lifting the levers, which lock them.)philnino wrote:My old illustrated parts catalog lists this part as a rudder hinge p/n-0510109 but the couple of folks I talked to did not have the cross reference. It is the steel bracket that holds the rudder bearing and is riveted to the lower tail above the tailwheel spring. Yes, I am still looking for one. Taking quotes!
I was wondering if you could apply a scuff plate to prevent the snagging of the parking brakes or are the tolerances such that they would increase the possibility this action. I guess I need to keep those 10 lb. chalks in the back for c.g. and peace of mind after all. Thanks,
Phillip
Re: PN 0510109 ......AHA! By reverse-process I discovered you are talking about Figure 25, item 25! NOW I can see what you're discussing! (If you'd mentioned a part number, or figure/item number in your first msg it would greatly shorten all the research and effort.)
That part is available in NOS condition (according to my sources) but not thru Cessna. Contact me thru email (found on the front page of the Flypaper) or PM.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Parking Brake Removal
George, I have been reading these posts for quite some time regarding the need to remove the cables, levers, et al. I do use my parking brake fairly regularily and hate to lose it, but have now come to the conclusion that it needs to be done. Although I have not yet incurred any problems with mine, I don't want to do so either. Its unfortunate that our older birds don't have the hand parking brake that Cessna later added to their planes (like a lot of the old Fords had). Before I contort myself under the instrument panel (and probably have to have a helper pull me out!!) can you give us a step-by-step procedure for removing all this "stuff", especially the levers, etc. attached to the brake fluid container/reservors? Just don't want to screw something up on them and I bet, while it may be a fairly easy task, you and others that have completed the task can offer some short cuts and/or ways to make it easier for someone doing it for the first time.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
170C
Director:
2012-2018
I just did this, so I'll take a stab at an explanation:
Life will be much better if you remove the front seats first. A good mirror and flashlight will be needed.
Cut the parking brake cable about 1" below the sheath.
Remove all of the wire hardware.
Bend the end of the cable back over the sheath.
Remove the cotter pin from the shaft that connects the rudder pedals to the piston rod.
Slide the shaft over. unscrew the top part of the piston rod and remove the parking brake hardware from the piston rod.
Reassemble the rudder pedal assembly.
Label parking brake knob in-op.
I am going from memory and may have missed something, but it is a pretty simple procedure once you dig into it.
jc
Life will be much better if you remove the front seats first. A good mirror and flashlight will be needed.
Cut the parking brake cable about 1" below the sheath.
Remove all of the wire hardware.
Bend the end of the cable back over the sheath.
Remove the cotter pin from the shaft that connects the rudder pedals to the piston rod.
Slide the shaft over. unscrew the top part of the piston rod and remove the parking brake hardware from the piston rod.
Reassemble the rudder pedal assembly.
Label parking brake knob in-op.
I am going from memory and may have missed something, but it is a pretty simple procedure once you dig into it.
jc
John
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
Rudder Hinge & Bellcrank
I replaced the rudder hinge and bellcrank today after finding that the originals were far worse than I thought. All seems to be from hangar damage years ago that was never repaired correctly and then covered up to look normal!!! I looked at the IPC and did not see any rudder stops on the rudder hinge p/n 0510109 but there are holes. Is there a specification for rigging this elswhere? Also, is there a bushing/bearing for this rudder hinge to rudder bellcrank p/n 053300011 besides the one pressed into the rudder hinge? I do not see that in the IPC either. Any help would be appreciated.
Phillip
Phillip
Philip, the rudder rigging instructions are contained in the Owner's Manual (found free at the home page, for TIC170A members). The rudder stops should be adjusted using washers under the AN3 bolt-stop. The rudder movement should be limited to 16-degrees, plus/minus 1-degree, left/right. (This is an important specification, as it not only affects ground-handling, but also affects spin-recovery.) Most rigging specifications are found in the Owner's Manual.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
When rigging the rudder it appears that you can give it more right travel than left. On the left side the rudder at full travel( no stops) will snag the elevator control torque tube horn. The stops will limit rudder travel at the required 16 Deg., but why not give the rudder 20 degs? In other words what in the design is the limiting factor to limit rudder travel?