Are there members out there who can comment on past experiences(any aircraft type) with different STOL kits (Horton, Robertson, Sportsman, etc.) that are available out there. I've received numerous comments on all kits during hanger talk and their positive or negative aspects including installation, price, and performance.
I've noticed the seaplane guys really lean towards the Sportsman kit and make mention that the Horton kit provides negligible performance gains. Does anybody have experience with any of the STOL kits on a 170 with floats? Any significantly noticable results observed?
General Plane/Plain STOL/Floatplane Talk
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
In my opinion, the Horton kit isn't worth the time and money to install it. It costs virtually the same to install as the Sportsman, and the Sportsman really makes a difference. I would never install a Horton kit on any Cessna, its just not worth the large amount of labor to install for the little bit of performance it affords.
I have the VG's on a stock wing 170 B. They are a waste of time and money, in my opinion. They did mellow the stall a bit, but its a gentle stalling airplane to start with.
If I had it to do again, I'd install a Sportsman kit. Its the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Mike Vivion
I have the VG's on a stock wing 170 B. They are a waste of time and money, in my opinion. They did mellow the stall a bit, but its a gentle stalling airplane to start with.
If I had it to do again, I'd install a Sportsman kit. Its the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Mike Vivion
I would spend the money on gas and flying time. If I lost 20 lbs the Airplane performance would be that much better too! 
Save the money just go fly.-
zero.one.victor
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It's my impression that the various leading edge cuffs are to lower stall speed, while VG's are to improve control authority at low speed-- in other words, to increase "flyability" & safety at the extreme low end of the envelope. And that any lowering of stall speed with the VG's is just a bonus. Mike, and others, what is your opinion re: increased control authority with the VG's?
I installed some bootleg flap gap seals on my ragwing on the advise of a couple friends. It did lower the stall speed noticably. However, the aileron authority is marginal at the lower approach speeds possible (Vso X 1.2 or even 1.3). I didn't feel comfortable with the mushy controls, so I came in at the same speed as before, which resulted in floating. This actually resulted in a longer landing than without the gap seals, so I removed them.
So a lower stall speed doesn't necesarily mean a shorter landing. I've heard the same comments about some of the STOL cuffs ("it just won't quit flying").
Eric
I installed some bootleg flap gap seals on my ragwing on the advise of a couple friends. It did lower the stall speed noticably. However, the aileron authority is marginal at the lower approach speeds possible (Vso X 1.2 or even 1.3). I didn't feel comfortable with the mushy controls, so I came in at the same speed as before, which resulted in floating. This actually resulted in a longer landing than without the gap seals, so I removed them.
So a lower stall speed doesn't necesarily mean a shorter landing. I've heard the same comments about some of the STOL cuffs ("it just won't quit flying").
Eric
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Metal Master
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Re: General Plane/Plain STOL/Floatplane Talk
I have installed the Horton kit years ago on several different aircraft at the owners request. Prior to that I worked at Robertson back in the 70's installing their STOL kits at Renton Wa.n3410c wrote:Are there members out there who can comment on past experiences(any aircraft type) with different STOL kits (Horton, Robertson, Sportsman, etc.) that are available out there. I've received numerous comments on all kits during hanger talk and their positive or negative aspects including installation, price, and performance.
I've noticed the seaplane guys really lean towards the Sportsman kit and make mention that the Horton kit provides negligible performance gains. Does anybody have experience with any of the STOL kits on a 170 with floats? Any significantly noticable results observed?
The interesting thing about the Horton kits were that they make no supplement to the operator’s manual that gives any improvement in performance numbers on the airplanes I installed them on. I think they probably do but it is an experiment on the part of the owner operator to find out what they are. So I guess you can say they increase safety at the original speeds.
I do not recall ever installing a kit on a 170 while at Robertson we did install them on a lot of 180's and 185's and some 182.s I doubt a kit was ever made for the 170 and 170A. The thoughts of a lot of operators at the time on the Robertson kit was that if there airplane was flown the way it could be the kit was not needed. However I did watch a 182 that had the kit installed hover at the end of the Renton airfield in what I remember to be a 40 Knot head wind. But it was about 29 years ago so my memory of it fades. I can tell you that having participated in the recording of some of the test and certification flights for one model of airplane. Flight in the profile that that gave the impressive numbers would scare the livin _____ out of the average pilot.
Jim
A&P, IA, New owner C170A N1208D, Have rebuilt some 50 aircraft. So many airplanes, So little time!
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zero.one.victor
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Speaking of STOL kits, a while back I ran into a guy flying a Petersen Wren. If you've never seen one, a Wren is a 182 modified with a canard wing mounted at the cowling just ahead of the forward door post. It also had leading edge cuffs or maybe slats, I can't remember, and I think also the ailerons & flaps were linked somehow. I seem to recall that it had stall fences, maybe on both the top & bottom of the wing. "It is about a butt-ugly thing", said the owner, "but it sures takes off & lands short". I think he said it flies at about 25 mph (GPS ground speed) in zero-wind conditions.
I just looked it up on the internet. http://www.260se.com is Peterson's Performance Pklus website.
Eric
I just looked it up on the internet. http://www.260se.com is Peterson's Performance Pklus website.
Eric
The Sportsman improves low speed controllability, mostly via the aileron gap seals that are part of the kit.
I have to agree with Tim, though, its hard to beat a stock wing, and you're better off spending the money on gas, or maybe insurance.
The flap gap seals are a bad idea on any airplane without the aileron gap seals, in my opinion. I have both on my airplane, which were installed prior to me buying the plane. I wouldn't do that again, either, install the seals, that is.
The Robertson kits are wonderful kits, but were never approved on the 170. You'd also have to have a LOT of spare change to do one of those.
The Wren is an interesting airplane, but why would you put all this fancy stuff on the one Cessna aircraft that you DON'T want to take off airport, cause of its flimsy nosegear? The 182 has a terrible reputation for bending firewalls, due to the nosegear, and the fact that the plane is noseheavy.
I honestly wouldn't bother with the VG's, for any reason. They are a nuisance, at best. As noted, they did improve the very low speed handling just a bit, but its not worth it. I spent less than $700 bucks on it, and Tim is right-I'd have been better off spending it on gas.
Now if you really do need or want better performance, the Sportsman is the best bang for the buck, but it isn't cheap.
Mike V
I have to agree with Tim, though, its hard to beat a stock wing, and you're better off spending the money on gas, or maybe insurance.
The flap gap seals are a bad idea on any airplane without the aileron gap seals, in my opinion. I have both on my airplane, which were installed prior to me buying the plane. I wouldn't do that again, either, install the seals, that is.
The Robertson kits are wonderful kits, but were never approved on the 170. You'd also have to have a LOT of spare change to do one of those.
The Wren is an interesting airplane, but why would you put all this fancy stuff on the one Cessna aircraft that you DON'T want to take off airport, cause of its flimsy nosegear? The 182 has a terrible reputation for bending firewalls, due to the nosegear, and the fact that the plane is noseheavy.
I honestly wouldn't bother with the VG's, for any reason. They are a nuisance, at best. As noted, they did improve the very low speed handling just a bit, but its not worth it. I spent less than $700 bucks on it, and Tim is right-I'd have been better off spending it on gas.
Now if you really do need or want better performance, the Sportsman is the best bang for the buck, but it isn't cheap.
Mike V