I've got another topic going, re. my considering the 170 to be my first plane. As I mentioned there, I was thinking of a lightweight project as a possiblity, but some great advice was given to find a flyable one, and there'll still be plenty to do. Makes sense to me. Regardless, I still want to set up to do some or most of the work myself but don't know a lot about constraints, other tnan the short list of owner performed maintenance. I've read the FAR & the recent string on that one. As I understand it, I could do most anything, just have to have a licenced person to guide and sign off. I also understand that I can log the hours worked towards an eventual A&P.
Finding a way to do some or most of the maintenance & upgrade work myself is a big piece of the puzzle in my getting my first plane..... my theory anyway.
I found out last night that my new neighbor is an FAA licenced mechanic. I didn't confirm if he has IA or not & didn't get into details with the wives in the room. I already knew that he's a retired Navy mechanic, and private pilot who owned a new C172 back in the 1970's. He hasn't flown in many years though, & I don't know his experience level with small single engine stuff. Either way, good guy.
Any suggestions on what to look for in finding a good mechanic to work with?..... questions to ask my neighbor, or anyone else for that matter? Is specific 170 experience knowledge really necessary (I'm sure that it's a plus), or is a licence good enough? I'd hate to get steered in the wrong direction by an unfamiliar A&P
Thanks
Brad
finding the right A&P / doing the work myself
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Doing the work yourself is definitely a great way to not only improve your own skills, but to truly learn your airplane. Not only will you know what really has been done (or not done), but you’ll eventually gain a thorough understanding of the condition of the engine/airframe. You will really *know* what you have and save a few $$ down the road.
As for mechanics, I think the individual matters as much as the experience. You can find guys with 170 experience who are hacks and guys with only 152/172-type experience who are conscientious and thorough. I’d ask around with local aircraft owners whose opinions you can trust and then go talk with some of the mechanics and see what kind of people they are as well as what experience they have.
I first went to a more “contemporary†mechanic. He was ok, but not as careful as I would have liked. He pretty much treated my 170 the same as a rental 172. It was airworthy, but it could have been better, in my mind.
I eventually found a great mechanic who, along with his son, have a love of vintage planes. They work on everything, but the antiques get a little extra attention. While they had only done extensive work one 170 previously, they had a significant amount of vintage experience to draw on. Not only did they “care†for my plane, but they employed a much longer range view with respect to maintenance and were able to offer ideas and suggestions that someone else wouldn’t have thought of or known.
So, I’d look for someone who “cares’ about these birds. Having 170 experience is certainly nice, but I’d be open to someone with a broad vintage background just as readily. Also, guys with vintage backgrounds (like the guy I found) tend to have more connections within that community with respect to finding parts, solving problems that may be unique to older planes, and working with the FAA on 337-type issues. If you can’t find a 170/vintage guy then do your best to find someone who is honest and thorough. They are hard to find sometimes, but they are out there.
As for mechanics, I think the individual matters as much as the experience. You can find guys with 170 experience who are hacks and guys with only 152/172-type experience who are conscientious and thorough. I’d ask around with local aircraft owners whose opinions you can trust and then go talk with some of the mechanics and see what kind of people they are as well as what experience they have.
I first went to a more “contemporary†mechanic. He was ok, but not as careful as I would have liked. He pretty much treated my 170 the same as a rental 172. It was airworthy, but it could have been better, in my mind.
I eventually found a great mechanic who, along with his son, have a love of vintage planes. They work on everything, but the antiques get a little extra attention. While they had only done extensive work one 170 previously, they had a significant amount of vintage experience to draw on. Not only did they “care†for my plane, but they employed a much longer range view with respect to maintenance and were able to offer ideas and suggestions that someone else wouldn’t have thought of or known.
So, I’d look for someone who “cares’ about these birds. Having 170 experience is certainly nice, but I’d be open to someone with a broad vintage background just as readily. Also, guys with vintage backgrounds (like the guy I found) tend to have more connections within that community with respect to finding parts, solving problems that may be unique to older planes, and working with the FAA on 337-type issues. If you can’t find a 170/vintage guy then do your best to find someone who is honest and thorough. They are hard to find sometimes, but they are out there.
Doug
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Brad I'd say you've found the guy you're looking for. Perhaps a swap on some of his expertise for some experience in your plane. I've lurked on your other post without comment but I think I'll chime in soon. As for the Mechanic to look over your shoulder they're kind of like flight instructors, keep working with a few of them until you're really comfortable with one. Don't worry, you'll find one.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Brad, I don't know about your mechanic'ing experience. But a good way to kinda ease into wrenching on airplanes is an owner-assisted pre-buy inspection, and owner-assisited annuals. I know a gal who enjoys being involved with the annuals on her Cherokee, she learns a lot & has fun too.
The are also some books available-- check your local large pilot shop, or some of the catalogs such as Aviation Book Co or Aircraft Spruce. Some local EAA chapters have pretty good libraries too. There's some good technical info & how-to stuff on the internet, too.
Eric
The are also some books available-- check your local large pilot shop, or some of the catalogs such as Aviation Book Co or Aircraft Spruce. Some local EAA chapters have pretty good libraries too. There's some good technical info & how-to stuff on the internet, too.
Eric
Brad,
As a A&P technician of 23 years I can say a few things, for the past 18 years I have worked for the airlines, prior to that several flight schools working the entire range of GA aircraft. So last year when I bought my first airplane come annual time I enlisted the help of my buddy who also is a airline tech but works on GA aircraft and classics on his days off. Like George said I could do a safe airworthy inspection on a newer 172 or contemp aircraft, but I relied on my friend to help with my 55 year old aircraft. He knew the hot spots were to look on aging aircraft, during the first annual he came up with over 80 discrepancy's, about 1/4 of which I would not even noticed. Sure I would of found the big Items but I wouldn't found the ( you cant do that there ) items that pop up in a 55 year old airplane that I would think belonged there. Admittedly we went over the 170 with a fine tooth comb, mostly because It was my fist airplane, my first annual (previous owners will always tell you theres not a thing wrong with the airplane.), my first 170 annual, my Buddy's first 170 annual plus I didn't have my tail wheel endorsement yet so we had time. So we spent over a month on her, but this year I flew up to his place in the morning and by the next morning we were leak checking and closing up.
The 170 is a pretty straight foward aircraft a lot of things could be done if you had a willing Tech to look over and buy off your work. I'm shure if you lavish your neighbor with gifts and beer it should not be a problem.
As a A&P technician of 23 years I can say a few things, for the past 18 years I have worked for the airlines, prior to that several flight schools working the entire range of GA aircraft. So last year when I bought my first airplane come annual time I enlisted the help of my buddy who also is a airline tech but works on GA aircraft and classics on his days off. Like George said I could do a safe airworthy inspection on a newer 172 or contemp aircraft, but I relied on my friend to help with my 55 year old aircraft. He knew the hot spots were to look on aging aircraft, during the first annual he came up with over 80 discrepancy's, about 1/4 of which I would not even noticed. Sure I would of found the big Items but I wouldn't found the ( you cant do that there ) items that pop up in a 55 year old airplane that I would think belonged there. Admittedly we went over the 170 with a fine tooth comb, mostly because It was my fist airplane, my first annual (previous owners will always tell you theres not a thing wrong with the airplane.), my first 170 annual, my Buddy's first 170 annual plus I didn't have my tail wheel endorsement yet so we had time. So we spent over a month on her, but this year I flew up to his place in the morning and by the next morning we were leak checking and closing up.
The 170 is a pretty straight foward aircraft a lot of things could be done if you had a willing Tech to look over and buy off your work. I'm shure if you lavish your neighbor with gifts and beer it should not be a problem.
Vic
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
I can pretty much only re-iterate what has already been said. If you have a particular aircraft that you have set your sights on, make sure you go through a thorough inspection before seriously considering buying it.
Even with the miniscule amount of experience I have, being fresh out of A&P school, I have already seen some pretty scary things. Example, a 172 that had been "maintained" by a mechanic who swore he was thorough: during the annual, it became apparent that the wingtips hadn't been removed for several years (implying several annuals!!!) Upon removal, we found rampant corrosion. What was going to be an annual turned into a new set of wings and a complete stripping of the aircraft to remove all of the corrosion, plus a new paintjob, obviously. One unhappy owner!
I digress.
I am a big advocate of DIY work; not only do you save money, but you learn. About this neighbor of yours, find out what experience he has with this type aircraft, if any, and other 100-series Cessnas. Try and find out how current he is and how much work he recently has performed on GA aircraft.
Best of luck!
Ben
Even with the miniscule amount of experience I have, being fresh out of A&P school, I have already seen some pretty scary things. Example, a 172 that had been "maintained" by a mechanic who swore he was thorough: during the annual, it became apparent that the wingtips hadn't been removed for several years (implying several annuals!!!) Upon removal, we found rampant corrosion. What was going to be an annual turned into a new set of wings and a complete stripping of the aircraft to remove all of the corrosion, plus a new paintjob, obviously. One unhappy owner!
I digress.
I am a big advocate of DIY work; not only do you save money, but you learn. About this neighbor of yours, find out what experience he has with this type aircraft, if any, and other 100-series Cessnas. Try and find out how current he is and how much work he recently has performed on GA aircraft.
Best of luck!
Ben
Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
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Joe Moilanen
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:45 am
Thanks guys, for the advice and grins. That makes sense to me -- essentially just read the person. That's something I have proven to myself many times, but I'm always fighting the engineer in me that wants data, even though I know data can be skewed in all sorts of ways. "Look at their tools", that sounds like good advice.
Ben, your story reminded me of something back when I was working on my Private. Working in industry & at the time a Maintenance Engineer, I had just atteneded a very thorough fastener seminar re. torquing and proper application of bolts, screws, washers, etc... Seems silly, but there really is a lot of science behind it that most don't know. Anyway, one of the mechanics at the FBO was doing some work on a plane, and was putting the prop back on. I can't remember what type of plane it was. The prop was held on by a whle bunch of those nylon insert lock nuts with no safety wire. These nuts are designed to be used only once. This guy was reusing the old ones. I said something & he blew me off.
This guy was licenced. I am not, but in this case knew better. This tought me that a licence or certification doesn't necissarily mean anything. A person never knows everything, even if they are an 'expert'. I guess the morale of the story is look at their tools to see if they do everything with a pair of channel locks, or if they at least try to do quility work; In addition see if they have an open mind and are always thinking and learning.
Ben, your story reminded me of something back when I was working on my Private. Working in industry & at the time a Maintenance Engineer, I had just atteneded a very thorough fastener seminar re. torquing and proper application of bolts, screws, washers, etc... Seems silly, but there really is a lot of science behind it that most don't know. Anyway, one of the mechanics at the FBO was doing some work on a plane, and was putting the prop back on. I can't remember what type of plane it was. The prop was held on by a whle bunch of those nylon insert lock nuts with no safety wire. These nuts are designed to be used only once. This guy was reusing the old ones. I said something & he blew me off.
This guy was licenced. I am not, but in this case knew better. This tought me that a licence or certification doesn't necissarily mean anything. A person never knows everything, even if they are an 'expert'. I guess the morale of the story is look at their tools to see if they do everything with a pair of channel locks, or if they at least try to do quility work; In addition see if they have an open mind and are always thinking and learning.
Nice analogy there with the lawnmowers 
BradW, I know exactly what you speak of, especially in the case of fasteners and 'licensed' mechanics. A while ago I was helping a friend button up another 172 after an annual, and I was looking at the fairings that cover the wingroots, and I found several sheetmetal screws that had been forced into nutplates by another A&P! Talk about sorry work! So, again, something small became something larger as instead of simply tightening up some bolts, we had to drill out holes, install new nutplates, and use larger bolts.
Also, that's scary about the nylocks on the Prop. Very scary. Those are supposed to be safety-wired, definetly, and not nylon locknuts in any case.
Ben
BradW, I know exactly what you speak of, especially in the case of fasteners and 'licensed' mechanics. A while ago I was helping a friend button up another 172 after an annual, and I was looking at the fairings that cover the wingroots, and I found several sheetmetal screws that had been forced into nutplates by another A&P! Talk about sorry work! So, again, something small became something larger as instead of simply tightening up some bolts, we had to drill out holes, install new nutplates, and use larger bolts.
Also, that's scary about the nylocks on the Prop. Very scary. Those are supposed to be safety-wired, definetly, and not nylon locknuts in any case.
Ben
Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Nothing scary about nylon-insert lock nuts. That's exactly what is specified by McCauley in their Service Manual, Fig. 4-24, item 1, PN A-1639-2 (which is nothing more than a MS20365/NAS1021N/AN365 elastic stop "Nylok" Nut.)
Just be certain that the prop bolt completely penetrates and exits the nylon portion of the nut.
While I personally would not re-use one, standard practice allows their re-use if they are unable to be threaded by hand.
(Caution: Never use the "thin" nuts such as the AN364/MS21083/NAS1022N series)
Just be certain that the prop bolt completely penetrates and exits the nylon portion of the nut.
While I personally would not re-use one, standard practice allows their re-use if they are unable to be threaded by hand.
(Caution: Never use the "thin" nuts such as the AN364/MS21083/NAS1022N series)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
