What does everyone recomend on flaps........Full for Takeoff and Landing?
Sean
Flaps for TO and Landing (Wheel Landings article)
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Well that would depend a lot on which model 170 you where talking about. Full flaps for takeoff won't work well in a B model.
I have a B. I use 10 degrees for takeoff out of my home airport because the locals like to see that for noise abatement. I generally use full plaps to land but use less than that when conditons warrent it.
I have a B. I use 10 degrees for takeoff out of my home airport because the locals like to see that for noise abatement. I generally use full plaps to land but use less than that when conditons warrent it.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Flaps for TO and Landing
on my 1956 170B:
I always use 10 degrees for take-off. For landing I put 10 degrees down on downwind - that makes the flap handle easy to reach later - even with the shoulder harness snug. Then I generally use:
Stiff Xwinds - leave it at 10 degrees
Normal LDG - 20 degrees turning base, begin final descent rate
Short/soft field - full flaps power approach
I always use 10 degrees for take-off. For landing I put 10 degrees down on downwind - that makes the flap handle easy to reach later - even with the shoulder harness snug. Then I generally use:
Stiff Xwinds - leave it at 10 degrees
Normal LDG - 20 degrees turning base, begin final descent rate
Short/soft field - full flaps power approach
I have a 1951 170A
I have not tried different flap settings yet but I may have to give it a shot.
There are as many tips as there are pilots. And many are very detailed starting on downwind. I generally do wheel landings unless needing a soft landing for a wet grass strip. My procedure (maybe over-simplified) is as follows:
Get setup on downwind, with 10 degrees of flaps, trim to 80 mph
Increase flaps to 20 degrees when turning 1 mi base, reduce power to ab out 1500 rpm
Adjust power as needed for descent path during base and final
On final verify trim setting for about 80mph but slow to 70 mph by hand
Flare to a slightly tail low but not 3-point attitude for a smooth contact
As soon as the wheels touch chop power and release backpressure
Brake as needed
Get setup on downwind, with 10 degrees of flaps, trim to 80 mph
Increase flaps to 20 degrees when turning 1 mi base, reduce power to ab out 1500 rpm
Adjust power as needed for descent path during base and final
On final verify trim setting for about 80mph but slow to 70 mph by hand
Flare to a slightly tail low but not 3-point attitude for a smooth contact
As soon as the wheels touch chop power and release backpressure
Brake as needed
Tailpilot, here's an article that you'd find somewhere back in the Search files. It's on my desktop so I'll just copy and paste it.
Wheel Landings in a Skywagon
By Bill White
May 16, 1999
The Big Picture
The highest percentage of accidents occur in the landing phase of a flight (37%). There have been a couple good articles in the past discussing three point (full stall) landings. Cessna 180/185 Club members have been doing a good job keeping us informed about aircraft maintenance information, but not much is said about what you have to do every time you fly - land the airplane. From the many pilots I've talked with (I have over 300 180/185's insured). Most say they use a three point (nose high attitude) full stall technique for the majority of their landings. They indicated this is the way they were taught. Set up the airplane, pull power and flair a few feet AGL, hold the yoke back until the airplane settles on the runway. For wheel landings carry a little extra speed and pin it on the runway. Nothing could be further from the truth. Neither procedure is the "best" way to do it.
I believe many of you were never initially trained to do wheel landings the right way, I wasn't. Most are told you only do wheel landings in strong cross winds. Some are afraid of them. Except for soft field landings, I believe a wheel landing is actually the preferred way to land......it's easy. I'll briefly discuss why. Many of you know of the "MAF" Missionary Aviator's Fellowship out of Redlands, CA. For over 20 years they have been training their pilots to fly C180/185's and 206's in countries all around the world and still have over 40 180/185's in service. Their training consists of hundreds of classroom and flight hours with several training flights to Idaho to fly the back country. They have instructors with over 10,000 hours of 180/185 time alone. I know there are other training facilities, but for my money these guys are the real experts. They have to fly these aircraft for a living in all conditions. Obviously they had to develop, standardize and use procedures and techniques to insure consistency and safety. Guess What? They use the wheel landing 98% of the time, except on soft surfaces.
Landings depend on feeling, reaction,and response. You want each landing to be as "predictable" as possible and a wheel landing is the most "predictable". Landing on wheels allows you to:
1) better see the approach, touchdown, and rollout.
2) Put all of the weight on the main wheels for most effective braking (a three point landing puts 500-600 pounds on the tail, this weight is now"free wheeling"),
3) eliminate more lift because the angle of attack is less, keeping you on the runway,
4) prevent the chance of floating, or drifting in cross winds, and
5) maintain better directional control on a bounced or a bad landing.
Misconception: Wheel landings are done at a higher approach speed. Truth: A typical good wheel landing approach is at 60 knots IAS unless conditions require differently. Yes you saw it correctly 60 knots. Remember a 10% increase in approach speed equals a 21% increase in landing roll! That's a lot folks! Misconception: You should "pin it on" the runway at touchdown. Truth: If done correctly you never pin it on, you fly it until the wheels 'touch', then chop the power and apply the brakes and there is very little or no bounce. With this approach you have to resist cutting power until the wheels touch. It takes practice.
The Technique
Get established on final. At 1 mile out you should be at 60 knots IAS (depending on wind conditions), 500 feet above the runway and descending at 500 FPM carrying about 13"-14" MP with full flaps. Trimmed to hands off. The aircraft should come over the threshold almost level. When the aircraft is on short final and about 20 feet agl, you should apply slight back pressure on the yoke (don't touch the power), but only for 3 to 4 seconds and then released back to neutral until wheel contact. This will slow the decent down to around 200 fpm until contact. The aircraft will contact the runway in a perfect decent rate eliminating bounce. Remember, do not flair and do not pull your power until you 'feel' the wheels touch (resist the temptation). This has to be learned because your natural instinct is always to pull power. Almost simultaneously when you pull power at wheel contact, come on with as much brakes as you need and hold neutral yoke. The torque from braking will help keep the tail up. Then as the speed is reduced and the tail settles come back with the yoke.
Remember, power controls rate of descent, if you reduce your power your descent rate will increase (even at 2'), then you'll have to flair to compensate and you'll be chasing the airplane. You want as few changes to correct as possible. This technique takes out the guess work - if you're low add power, if high reduce. Never change attitude or trim, it's simple. A full stall landing has everything changing at the same time which includes: power, speed, attitude, yoke, visibility and pitch. This is not as predictable because you're waiting for things to happen, you're chasing it. This wheel landing technique is near bulletproof if learned correctly. It is being used all over the world by pilots much more knowledgeable than I. "MAF" uses wheel landings at all the airports in Idaho they fly into. That includes Soldier's Bar, Allison Ranch, Bernard, Krassel and more. All you do is cut power, brake and turn off the runway. Until you learn it correctly, stick with the technique you're most comfortable with if it works for you. I recommend you practice this with a CFI that really knows the technique. He can better see your mistakes. I took several hours of training from "MAF" a few years ago. It really improved my proficiency. Once correctly learned, you'll wish you had known this years ago. Happy Flying!
Bill White
An Editorial Response
Wheel Landings in a Skywagon
By Bill White
May 16, 1999
The Big Picture
The highest percentage of accidents occur in the landing phase of a flight (37%). There have been a couple good articles in the past discussing three point (full stall) landings. Cessna 180/185 Club members have been doing a good job keeping us informed about aircraft maintenance information, but not much is said about what you have to do every time you fly - land the airplane. From the many pilots I've talked with (I have over 300 180/185's insured). Most say they use a three point (nose high attitude) full stall technique for the majority of their landings. They indicated this is the way they were taught. Set up the airplane, pull power and flair a few feet AGL, hold the yoke back until the airplane settles on the runway. For wheel landings carry a little extra speed and pin it on the runway. Nothing could be further from the truth. Neither procedure is the "best" way to do it.
I believe many of you were never initially trained to do wheel landings the right way, I wasn't. Most are told you only do wheel landings in strong cross winds. Some are afraid of them. Except for soft field landings, I believe a wheel landing is actually the preferred way to land......it's easy. I'll briefly discuss why. Many of you know of the "MAF" Missionary Aviator's Fellowship out of Redlands, CA. For over 20 years they have been training their pilots to fly C180/185's and 206's in countries all around the world and still have over 40 180/185's in service. Their training consists of hundreds of classroom and flight hours with several training flights to Idaho to fly the back country. They have instructors with over 10,000 hours of 180/185 time alone. I know there are other training facilities, but for my money these guys are the real experts. They have to fly these aircraft for a living in all conditions. Obviously they had to develop, standardize and use procedures and techniques to insure consistency and safety. Guess What? They use the wheel landing 98% of the time, except on soft surfaces.
Landings depend on feeling, reaction,and response. You want each landing to be as "predictable" as possible and a wheel landing is the most "predictable". Landing on wheels allows you to:
1) better see the approach, touchdown, and rollout.
2) Put all of the weight on the main wheels for most effective braking (a three point landing puts 500-600 pounds on the tail, this weight is now"free wheeling"),
3) eliminate more lift because the angle of attack is less, keeping you on the runway,
4) prevent the chance of floating, or drifting in cross winds, and
5) maintain better directional control on a bounced or a bad landing.
Misconception: Wheel landings are done at a higher approach speed. Truth: A typical good wheel landing approach is at 60 knots IAS unless conditions require differently. Yes you saw it correctly 60 knots. Remember a 10% increase in approach speed equals a 21% increase in landing roll! That's a lot folks! Misconception: You should "pin it on" the runway at touchdown. Truth: If done correctly you never pin it on, you fly it until the wheels 'touch', then chop the power and apply the brakes and there is very little or no bounce. With this approach you have to resist cutting power until the wheels touch. It takes practice.
The Technique
Get established on final. At 1 mile out you should be at 60 knots IAS (depending on wind conditions), 500 feet above the runway and descending at 500 FPM carrying about 13"-14" MP with full flaps. Trimmed to hands off. The aircraft should come over the threshold almost level. When the aircraft is on short final and about 20 feet agl, you should apply slight back pressure on the yoke (don't touch the power), but only for 3 to 4 seconds and then released back to neutral until wheel contact. This will slow the decent down to around 200 fpm until contact. The aircraft will contact the runway in a perfect decent rate eliminating bounce. Remember, do not flair and do not pull your power until you 'feel' the wheels touch (resist the temptation). This has to be learned because your natural instinct is always to pull power. Almost simultaneously when you pull power at wheel contact, come on with as much brakes as you need and hold neutral yoke. The torque from braking will help keep the tail up. Then as the speed is reduced and the tail settles come back with the yoke.
Remember, power controls rate of descent, if you reduce your power your descent rate will increase (even at 2'), then you'll have to flair to compensate and you'll be chasing the airplane. You want as few changes to correct as possible. This technique takes out the guess work - if you're low add power, if high reduce. Never change attitude or trim, it's simple. A full stall landing has everything changing at the same time which includes: power, speed, attitude, yoke, visibility and pitch. This is not as predictable because you're waiting for things to happen, you're chasing it. This wheel landing technique is near bulletproof if learned correctly. It is being used all over the world by pilots much more knowledgeable than I. "MAF" uses wheel landings at all the airports in Idaho they fly into. That includes Soldier's Bar, Allison Ranch, Bernard, Krassel and more. All you do is cut power, brake and turn off the runway. Until you learn it correctly, stick with the technique you're most comfortable with if it works for you. I recommend you practice this with a CFI that really knows the technique. He can better see your mistakes. I took several hours of training from "MAF" a few years ago. It really improved my proficiency. Once correctly learned, you'll wish you had known this years ago. Happy Flying!
Bill White
An Editorial Response
Thanks for all the help.............My wife and I just got back from flying to and from Dinner....I tried the tips yall gave me.....AAANNNNDDDD.....Wellllllllll....the first landing or two was a wheel/3 pointer......The key is to not flair.....just ease up on the decent rate.......and not to forget to chop the power when the mains touch seem to be pretty important.........Long story short.....I got the hang of it....and just like everyone has said, once you do a couple you realize they arent as hard as they seem and I feel more in control than I do a 3 point...Thanks again....
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LouLaSalle
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:39 pm
To Tailpilot,
I agree with Beeliner. 10 degrees on down wind, second notch on base, and 1500 or so rpm's to keep you on approach. I rarely use full flaps for landing, as they make my 52' B stone like. But they do make for a slow and short landing if you are inclined. I go flapless for takeoff, unless I want to emulate a helicopter, or i'm on grass(runway) not smoke.
Lou N2485D
I agree with Beeliner. 10 degrees on down wind, second notch on base, and 1500 or so rpm's to keep you on approach. I rarely use full flaps for landing, as they make my 52' B stone like. But they do make for a slow and short landing if you are inclined. I go flapless for takeoff, unless I want to emulate a helicopter, or i'm on grass(runway) not smoke.
Lou N2485D
Lou La Salle
N2485D
Elephant Path, Pa. (PS03)
N2485D
Elephant Path, Pa. (PS03)
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Jr.CubBuilder
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:33 pm
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Stan_Lindholm
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:26 pm
Here's my two cents, worth everything you paid for it:
I've recently done nothing but wheel landings. I generally land (and takeoff) flaps up, unless the approach or runway length dictate their use. With flaps up, I cross the numbers at 70 - 75 MPH indicated. On short final, I roll in a little nose down trim, which helps keep the airplane from bouncing. (You tend to relax whatever pressure you are holding on the yoke as you touch down.) I seldom use full flaps because it makes go-arounds more difficult. But on short fields or with obstacles, they are very effective (at least in a 'B' model). When I use full or partial flaps, I generally make 3 pointers. Unless I mess up, I use no power. (Methinks using power is something of a crutch, and ALWAYS using it would not serve you well in the event of an engine failure...) I make my approaches power off, slowly closing the throttle on downwind until I'm at idle prior to turning base (traffic permitting...)
All that said, I'll share what I feel are the 3 essential factors to making good wheel (or 3 point for that matter) landings:
1. Practice
2. Practice
3. Practice
(Not necessarily in that order...)
While I'm at it, I'll share a few other tips garnered from 29 years of flying 16,000 hours or so:
1. If you move something in the cockpit, and the engine quits - MOVE IT BACK TO WHERE IT WAS.
2. Point the airplane where you want it to go, if it's not going that way - POINT HARDER.
3. If you don't want the airplane to go over there - DON'T LET IT GO OVER THERE.
Hope this helps!
I've recently done nothing but wheel landings. I generally land (and takeoff) flaps up, unless the approach or runway length dictate their use. With flaps up, I cross the numbers at 70 - 75 MPH indicated. On short final, I roll in a little nose down trim, which helps keep the airplane from bouncing. (You tend to relax whatever pressure you are holding on the yoke as you touch down.) I seldom use full flaps because it makes go-arounds more difficult. But on short fields or with obstacles, they are very effective (at least in a 'B' model). When I use full or partial flaps, I generally make 3 pointers. Unless I mess up, I use no power. (Methinks using power is something of a crutch, and ALWAYS using it would not serve you well in the event of an engine failure...) I make my approaches power off, slowly closing the throttle on downwind until I'm at idle prior to turning base (traffic permitting...)
All that said, I'll share what I feel are the 3 essential factors to making good wheel (or 3 point for that matter) landings:
1. Practice
2. Practice
3. Practice
(Not necessarily in that order...)
While I'm at it, I'll share a few other tips garnered from 29 years of flying 16,000 hours or so:
1. If you move something in the cockpit, and the engine quits - MOVE IT BACK TO WHERE IT WAS.
2. Point the airplane where you want it to go, if it's not going that way - POINT HARDER.
3. If you don't want the airplane to go over there - DON'T LET IT GO OVER THERE.
Hope this helps!
Stan Lindholm
N8287A
N8287A
I have discovered, that when light, wheel landings with 30 degrees (2 notches) of flaps works very well, full flaps causes too much float/balloon/bounce. When heavy however, such as 4 folks or lots of fuel baggage, etc., full flaps works better than less flaps.
Zero flaps (in my opinion) lends to a touchdown that is too fast, hard on tyres (at least the British ones) and leads easily to bounces because the airplane still has so much speed it wants to keep flying.
These comments are applicable to my B-model. Your mileage may vary.
(Joe's airplane stops suddenly,...won't even bounce...when he reduces throttle regardless of flap setting.)
Zero flaps (in my opinion) lends to a touchdown that is too fast, hard on tyres (at least the British ones) and leads easily to bounces because the airplane still has so much speed it wants to keep flying.
These comments are applicable to my B-model. Your mileage may vary.
(Joe's airplane stops suddenly,...won't even bounce...when he reduces throttle regardless of flap setting.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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Stan_Lindholm
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:26 pm
Zero flaps (in my opinion) lends to a touchdown that is too fast, hard on tyres (at least the British ones) and leads easily to bounces because the airplane still has so much speed it wants to keep flying.
George
I ALWAYS respect your opinion, but if the touchdown is too fast with no flaps, I respectfully submit that you slow it down a bit! I have a good friend that owns a Citabria, which has NO flaps (GASP!!) and ALWAYS lands it flaps up! (Granted, he only has 23,000 hours and 15,000 hours tailwheel...)
Being too fast really has nothing to do with the flap setting, unless you are too fast for the GIVEN flap setting. I respectfully disagree that the flap setting has anything to do with the tendency to bounce. That is more a function of energy, vertical speed at touchdown and elevator input immediately after touchdown.
Having said all that -- I would say that whatever works for you is great. For me, I use no flaps for a normal wheel landings on an adequate runway. My home field has 3,800 feet of asphalt. But I use MY normal procedure on grass or paved runways down to 2,400 feet or so. Less than that I opt for 3 points with flaps.
George
I ALWAYS respect your opinion, but if the touchdown is too fast with no flaps, I respectfully submit that you slow it down a bit!
I have a good friend that owns a Citabria, which has NO flaps (GASP!!) and ALWAYS lands it flaps up! (Granted, he only has 23,000 hours and 15,000 hours tailwheel...)Being too fast really has nothing to do with the flap setting, unless you are too fast for the GIVEN flap setting. I respectfully disagree that the flap setting has anything to do with the tendency to bounce. That is more a function of energy, vertical speed at touchdown and elevator input immediately after touchdown.
Having said all that -- I would say that whatever works for you is great. For me, I use no flaps for a normal wheel landings on an adequate runway. My home field has 3,800 feet of asphalt. But I use MY normal procedure on grass or paved runways down to 2,400 feet or so. Less than that I opt for 3 points with flaps.
Stan Lindholm
N8287A
N8287A