Flaps for TO and Landing (Wheel Landings article)

[N1478D]

Have to respectfully disagree also George. Don't believe that the flap setting has anything to do with a bounce on a wheel landing. The attitude and descent rate at touch down should be the same regardless of flap setting.

Doesn't the first/second notch of flaps provide more lift than drag?

It does take more practice/skill to slow her down without flaps IMHO, but a flapless landing is more pretty.

Most of the time I am lazy and land with flaps because it slows the speed down so easily vs getting behind the power curve and slowing down.

How in the world do you ever practice slowing down George? Oh, guess you go and rent an airplane so you can git going fast enough to slow down!

[GAHorn]

Have to respectfully disagree also George. Don't believe that the flap setting has anything to do with a bounce on a wheel landing. The attitude and descent rate should be the same regardless of flap setting.

Doesn't the first/second notch of flaps provide more lift than drag?

It does take more practice/skill to slow her down without flaps IMHO, but a flapless landing is more pretty.

Most of the time I am lazy and land with flaps because it slows the speed down so easily vs getting behind the power curve and slowing down.

How in the world do you ever practice slowing down George? Oh, guess you go and rent an airplane so you can git going fast enough to slow down!

All joking aside for a moment, Joe...the B-model with it's large flaps really wants to fly again if those flaps are out there. That's my reasoning anyway.
Yes the first flaps has more lift than drag, but the full flaps still has a huge amount of lift in a B-model....the problem is that the "float" time is greatly diminished with full flaps...making the time available to judge the exact moment of touchdown a bit more tricky. This can result in touchdowns sooner than expected,...so if a pilot trys to "plant it" to avoid running out of time...he may actually find a resulting bounce because he's still flying with a whole bunch of lift remaining in those big flaps. In any case, landing techniques is such an individual/personal thing I don't know that we can actually make a hard and fast rule for everyone. I just wanted to share something I'd found: in my experience with a B-model...when lightly loaded... less than full flaps seems to work better doing wheel landings. The ragwings/A-models don't behave that way, in my view. They are much more predictable regardless of flap settings.
(Joking switched back ON:) That's why B-model pilots are more talented than A-model guys. Our airplanes have a greater range of capabilities and flight characteristics. For example: We can go both fast (relative) AND slow ...unlike your Slow-Only thing!

[N1478D]

Totally agree that whatever works best for someone is most likely what they should use. Surprised that having full flaps out in a B makes the airpane want to fly. Why isn't the wind hitting those barn doors just like a down elevator making the nose want to point down?

(Joking switch ON) Glad you pointed out that you B guys have to have all of the help with the bent wings, large flaps, etc to fly an airplane. Us A guys with classic straight wings and the decorative flaps just have to rely on ability.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

That's why B-model pilots are more talented than A-model guys. Our airplanes have a greater range of capabilities and flight characteristics....

Us A guys with classic straight wings and the decorative flaps just have to rely on ability.

Joe wins this one George

[N1478D]

That sure is a good looking avatar Bruce!

[dacker]

These landing technique threads are always my favorites! First I will cover what I do in my A model.

Takeoffs: Yoke into the wind, rudder to keep it straight, lift the tail when it becomes light, then lift off into ground effect somewhere after 50mph when she is ready to fly. Pop two notches of flaps if I want to elevator up, or clear obstacles (or pretend to clear obstacles). Usually as soon as the airplane lifts off it accelerate fairly quickly over 60 mph.

Landings: 80 mph on downwind, pull two notches (20 deg) abeam point of landing and reduce throttle to about 1300, pull third notch (40 deg?) turn base and adjust throttle to try to hit about 70 mph and 800 AGL at midpoint of base turn. This is the point where I vary techniques between the pull it all the way to idle to or keep power on. Notice I didn't say where I turn base, if it is going to be an idling approach I turn much closer, if a powered approach I turn when the touch down point is aft 45 degrees. I am from the school that believes an engine is more likely to conk out when you reduce power, but I also practice the no power approaches for engine out practice. Sort of walking the fence . I digress... from the base turn I pull the fourth notch (50 deg?) and slow down to from 55 to 65 mph depending on how short I want to land and gust conditions. Wing down top rudder for alignment down final and then usually three point. For me that is the best way to land in cross wind conditions. If I am practicing wheelies I usually keep power at about 1200 and approach at 65 mph. I try to just fly the airplane on and rock the yoke forward the moment the wheels touch. The technique that someone mentioned of trimming at a higher airspeed works great at preventing bounces.
Now for my caveat... wheel landings are generally taught as the cure all for crosswind landings, what I have found is that wheelies take a little more finesse close to the ground, and when there are high crosswinds there is usually turbulence. Maybe it is easier in a B model, maybe it is just a quirk in my flying but a wheel landing is the last thing you will see me doing in high crosswinds.
I'm not sure I can agree with the technique of flying the airplane down at an 80 mph low pass down the runway where the mains just happen to meet the pavement... that eats up a lot of runway, seems that is more of a crutch than carrying power. Nor do I agree with the other method some teach of landing tail low then rocking forward, why not just three point?
I don't mean to criticize harshly or pretend I am a tailwheel expert, I like to try different methods and I have certainly been known to arrive rather abruptly at times . Reading the techniques of others is what makes this a neat website!
David

[GAHorn]

That's why B-model pilots are more talented than A-model guys. Our airplanes have a greater range of capabilities and flight characteristics....

Us A guys with classic straight wings and the decorative flaps just have to rely on ability.

Joe wins this one George

This judgement from a rotor-head? (grin) Who doesn't really know which model he has?

Seriously, my comment was intended to point out that B-models have a larger envelope/variety of flight characteristics than A-models as the result of it's larger flaps. You'll not likely see the effects of pitch, lift, and drag demonstrated any better than a B-model can. Of course, those differences require a pilot to be adaptable to the greater differences of the airplane. (Now, if it just had the horsepower to take advantage of it.... Why, oh why didn't Cessna put the TCM O-360 and C-175 52 gal. tanks in it? If I ever decide to quit the originality thing...that's what I intend to do. Perhaps (while I'm dreaming) with an electric prop for good measure.)

On the other hand, an A-model/ragwing pilot has to be better at planning/judging field-performance, no doubt about it.

Unseriously, B-model pilots have to contend with those greater differences with a wider repetoire of technique.

[N1478D]

How deep are you going to dig that hole George?

You are right about one point - your old airplane demonstrates drag better than any other.

[LouLaSalle]

Stan,

Thats good, sound advise! You forgot to mention to "keep the shiny side up".

Lou

[Jr.CubBuilder]

It's interesting to read about other peoples approach speeds, flap use, etc. I'm still new to my plane (it's older than me so I guess I'm newer to it rather than it to me) and learning, but it's clear to me that they all have their own personalities. Mine has a 7645 climb prop on it, and consequently I'm only doing 80mph when I start downwind. If I want to slow the plane up all I have to do is pull the power and there's a definate drag sensation, enough that it needs a little left rudder to keep the ball centered.

I usually fly my pattern (if you can call it that since it usually comes out looking more like a bent horseshoe) between 60 and 70mph. By the time I flare the ASI is showing 40-45mph but I think that's a lie due to angle of attack on the pitot tube. I tend to adjust the radius of base and final to compensate my distance to the threshhold. I usually have full flaps on final, but I've been experimenting a little with 30 degrees. Also I have four notches of flaps on my 52B but I've been reading hear and there where it sounds like some models only have three 10, 30, 40?

Four years ago I started my training at a 141 flight school and learned the "standard Cessna approach" as gospel, thou shalt never deviate from this method
Since then I've learned that landing much like parallel parking can be accomplished different ways, and it's nice to have different options open to you.

I know a 185 driver that swears on wheel landings with lots of speed on final, fly the plane onto the ground. Thus far I feel better getting the plane as slow as I can when I'm close to the runway. As long as I have the yoke back a stall at six inches of altitude is just fine with me.

[mvivion]

I am an advocate of using whichever landing technique (wheel or three point) you and your aircraft feel most comfortable with in a given circumstance. The problem with that, of course, is you have to go fly the airplane in a lot of situations to get a good handle on what works best.

I'm with George on the subject of flap use, for the most part. I can't imagine why anyone would land the airplane regularly without flaps deployed. A couple of reasons to use flaps for landings:

1) slower landing speed (stall speed is slower with flaps deployed--check your owner's manual) with flaps deployed.

2) Slower speed means less exposure to loss of control, less wear on wheel bearings, tires, brakes, etc.

3) Flap deloyment helps to level the airplane, thus giving you a better view of what you are about to land on.

4) Flaps generate considerable lift (which is why the lower stall speed). Once on the ground, dump the flaps, and the airplane is more "stuck" than otherwise might be possible.

5) You paid for the flaps, why not use them?

As to tail low wheel landings, the advantages are:

1) They let you touch at a much lower speed (similar to the touchdown speed for a three point).

2) Once on the surface, they allow you much better visibility of the path ahead. Maybe not a huge deal on a 300 foot wide runway, but it is in a lot of places. It even lets you keep a better eye on the centerline, if you worry about that.

3) Slower touchdowns mean less wear and tear on landing gear components, including the tailwheel, and less abuse on the gearbox/airframe, particularly in off airport environments.

4) Get the airplane up on it's main gear right after touchdown, and you a) put all the weight on the mains for braking effectiveness, b) protect that flimsy little tailwheel from unecessary abuse, c) levels the airplane, and lessens the angle of attack, spoiling lift, and preventing the airplane from ballooning, if you were to encounter a wind gust.

In essence, a tail low wheel landing gives you most if not all the advantages of both type landings.

Mike Vivion

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

This judgement from a rotor-head? (grin) Who doesn't really know which model he has?

Well this "rotor-head" bought a fast sleek A model with the best features of a B model. Sounds like good judgement to me.

That sure is a good looking avatar Bruce!

Thanks Joe. What do you like the best about it. The good looking "rotor-head" or the cool logo?

[blueldr]

What is all this discussion over landing the C-170? The proper way is to:
1; Fly 80/70/ 60 in the pattern,(+/- 10 or 15).
2; Level off with the mains 1/32" and the tail
wheel tire 24 3/8" above the surface with
4lbs 3oz. of back pressure on the control
wheel. When the mains touch down, release
the back pressure and start filling out the
log book.

[zero.one.victor]

First of all, 8782A, tell me more about the guy's 15,000 hours of tailwheel time. Wow! Musta been DC-3 or Beech 18 freighter time, eh?
Secondly, I agree with most or all of Mike's points for using the flaps.
I use half flaps (2 notches) for takeoff in my ragwing, as well as for loitering (sight-seeing) and when I have to fly a cross-country pattern behind them nosedragger guys who think their Cherokee (or whatever) is an airliner, and fly their pattern accordingly. I use full flaps for landing. I fly a similar approach at similar speeds whether I'm gonna 3-point or wheel land-- usually shoot for 60-65 on final. The only difference is a little nose-down trim for the wheeler, carrying a slight (just above idle) bit of power. If it's cross-windy/gusty I'll carry a bit more speed. Probably 75% of my landings are wheel landings.
Landing, I generally pull all the flaps on all at once,except when I'm flying an extended pattern with half-flaps. I joke that the ragqwing only has flaps to give the pilot something to do in the pattern, but they do make a difference in stall speed, as well as attitude-- more nose down at the same speed with flaps, for better visibility.
Bill White's wheel landing article is a good one, informational even if you do it a bit different than he describes.

Eric

[Stan_Lindholm]

What is all this discussion over landing the C-170? The proper way is to:
1; Fly 80/70/ 60 in the pattern,(+/- 10 or 15).
2; Level off with the mains 1/32" and the tail
wheel tire 24 3/8" above the surface with
4lbs 3oz. of back pressure on the control
wheel. When the mains touch down, release
the back pressure and start filling out the
log book.

Well ... I use 4 lbs 5 1/4 oz of back pressure -- but I DID say I use a little nose down trim, so I'll attribute the difference to that.

I shared my earlier post with my brother, who reminded me of the advice our dad gave us when we were learing to fly: "Move the controls so the airplane is doing what you want it to do!" There you go! Works great for takeoffs, landings and anything in between!