Flap Gap Seals, Performance Boost

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funseventy
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:46 pm

Flap Gap Seals, Performance Boost

Post by funseventy »

Image

This is a picture of a fabric bellows style of gap seal. It was introduce in the 80's and never got any level of marketing, so it has just about gone away. It seals almost all of the air from passing through the gap while deployed. It has revealed huge performance gains. Does anyone else have similar experience with this kit or others on other aircraft? I would like to try to make this available to 170 owners. It is what we've been looking for to help 170's when we've been asking about props and other mods.

Kelly
doug8082a
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Post by doug8082a »

Kelly,
Can you elaborate on the performance gains?

Thanks,
Doug
funseventy
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Post by funseventy »

First thing is that a 170 does not have balanced landing and takeoff distances. I typically use 150-200 ft more for take off. My first flight with the gap seal revealed balance conditions. At 2200' elevation and 65 degrees I was seeing landing distances around 360' without any wind or crazy braking techniques, and that is from the end of the runway not my tochdown point. My takeoff distance was around 350' without any crazy techniques, just using 20 degrees of flaps (no wind). I figure the landing distance will go down as I get used to the new performance as I feel that I am bringing it too fast using my old numbers.

I believe that you climb fixed pitch props at a higher speed so you get the RPM's up and gain HP. Here are my numbers old and new:

Climb at 70, Before 550 fpm, After 900 fpm
Climb at 90, Before 900 fpm, After 1100 fpm

*That is with the Flaps retracted which implies air still slips through there when they are retracted at high AOA.

The noticeable changes are almost unbelievable, like:
1) on downwind i can be 300' higher than normal
2) when I use extreme measure to get airborne it is an easy transition to normal climb, where before it was almost impossible
3) I can use 30 degree flaps for takeoff and see an improvement over 20 and still transition to normal climb easily

Last night I went and played again after running an errand for my wife.
The conditions were:
No wind and 2200' elev and 65 degrees
Airplane with 5/8 fuel all seats and headsets, survival gear, 185 lbs of pilot, baby stroller, baby swing, and baby walker (wife's errand).

Landing distance was 240' and takeoff was 315' (+/- 10') on three patterns.

The airplane is a stock 145 hp with a 7649 prop and does not have any other lift devices on it. No VG's nor Leading edge Cuff.

I believe this to be truly amazing at 2200' elevation.

Here is what they look like stowed.

Image
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lowNslow
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Post by lowNslow »

I thought the whole idea of flap seals was to seal the gap when the flaps were up, these seem to seal the gap when the flaps are down as well. The whole idea of slotted fowler flaps was to provide better air flow over the top of the flaps at the higher flap settings? This mod would seem to increase drag at the higher flap settings and increase stall speed.
Last edited by lowNslow on Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
funseventy
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Post by funseventy »

Those are my thoughts exactly. I can not believe what I am seeing and my only conclusion is that at high angles of attack it may be funnelling air through there and actually forcing a seperation of air.

My next step is to tuft an airplnae before and after and get some pictures. I would be sure to post my findings as I get some data.
Eric Leclercq
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Flap seal

Post by Eric Leclercq »

Regarding flow visualisation, you might want to try to use oil with a fluorescent pigment on the flaps. They used that technique at the University of Illinois to see flow seperation in wind tunnel :roll: .I just checked in my reference and it is household-grade mineral oil with Kent-Moore 28431-1 pigment,

Eric C. :D
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blueldr
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Post by blueldr »

I am completely lost trying to figure out what kind of flap gap seals are shown in the pictures. They're certainly not at all like any others that I've ever seen. Where did they come from and who installed them? STCd? Name? I've installed flap gap seals on a number of Cessnas and have never seen a set that I would put on my own airplane. I've always figured that if they were really any good, Cessna would have installed them by now.
BL
funseventy
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Post by funseventy »

If you look at the first picture you will see a piece of white fabric that is attached on one side to the wing and the other side is attached to the flap leading edge using two strips of aluminum. This loop of fabric is very well designed in that it has enough slack to allow the flap to move but it never hangs out to where it is visible.

This is part of an STC'd STOL kit out of Alaska. The kit also includes a leading edge cuff and stall fences; of which, I don't think make enough difference to make up for the 18 lbs you added.

The addition of the gap seals only adds 2 lbs and the difference is quite substantial.

I have made approaches at 45 mph indicated that seemed like I was still fast. I have not fully experimented with the change but have yet to see any negatives.
n3437d
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Flap Seals

Post by n3437d »

I am with LowNSlo on this one. First I am not an aeronautical engineer, with that said, I truly do not understand the concept. First I thought that the the purpose of a Fowler flap was to ensure airflow over surface. This seal seem to act like as a "wind catcher." Other than acting as a drogue I don't comprehend it. I have seen similar concepts on the gap between vertical stab and rudder on sailplanes. This concept would increase drag and also seems to me to lose part of the wing surface. Is not the flap part of the wing surface extended or retracted?

What about root seal to fuselage where a lot of drag occurrs?

Interested in reading more on this topic.

N3437D
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Bill Rusk
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Post by Bill Rusk »

So how would this be with Vortex generators? Sounds like we are gonna have a little fun here.
Lets see....29" Alaska Bushwheels, Borer prop, Extended bagage, Brake boosters, landings in under 100 feet.....yea, I'm getting into this!!

:D
Bill
n3437d
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Flaps and Gaps

Post by n3437d »

Now if you really wanted to make it interesting...from about 5oo' point the nose straight down... I predict that the stoping distance will be within 50' Please do not try this at the field...this landing can be accomplished ONLY once per pilot/plane combination. :wink:
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funseventy
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Post by funseventy »

I am getting the idea that there are a few non-believers and that is OK!

But for the nay-sayers-
Are you ready to race for pinkslips?

I was NOT putting this info out there to boast, but rather to gain any experiences someone else might have. As an A&P/IA with STC experience, if it is something that people want I would help get it. I am now doing everything my Super Cub friends are doing, but I'm 15 mph faster, burning 1 gph less, with 30K less invested, while looking prettier.

I thought some of us 170'ers would be interested.
JTS
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Post by JTS »

Hey guys, Kelly I tend to concur with your air separation idea in that those gap seals may actually be creating an air dam(Invisible "conventional" gap seal) reducing the drag at higher angles of attack while the flaps are retracted. This may allow quicker acceleration on climbout, hence a better climb rate. As far as their performance with flaps extended, I'm still trying to visualize how they would increase performance the way you say they do. Just my unqualified opinion. :idea:
Jody
'52 170B CF-FDH Ser# 20841
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

Kelly,the results you've had are awesome. I don't think the "nay-sayers" are calling you a liar,or a boaster-- it's just that "we scoff at what we don't understand".
You said that these gap seals are part of an STC'd STOL kit out of Alaska. What is the kit STC'd for--180/185's? Also,is the flap-gap seal approved for installation without the cuffs & fences?
The gap seals are kinda unorthodox,as least compared to the ones I've heard of,yet it sounds like they really do the trick,and seem to be pretty unobtrusive with the flaps up. Sounds good to me. Alas, though, I have a ragwing......

Eric
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Kelly

Depending on the cost I'd be interested. I love simple solutions or improvements though lots would argue the seals would be neither.

Is the fabric Ceconite or equivalent?
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