The International Cessna 170 Association

Hey all.

I might have the opportunity to buy a recently (early 2010s) refurbed 170 (not sure if a or b yet, it has a 180hp conversion) in the near future.

This would be my first a/c ownership experience. To properly set my own expectations, I'm interested in getting your experiences with annuals (typical duration, cost) should-do STCs (safety stuff first, later performance and usability like tank upgrade and cs prop, what others?), things to watch out for or avoid, etc.

You might want to familiarize yourself with : http://cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=228

gahorn wrote:You might want to familiarize yourself with : http://cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=228

Good read, thanks

Can't give you any idea on the cost of annuals cause I've had the opportunity to always do a owner assist annual with a good friend IA and he wants no compensation. (I pay him anyway)

What I can tell you is that if properly done and documented a 180hp 170 of any model is a highly desired airplane and so that conversion, or actually to be more correct a STC which provides higher horsepower than the stock engine, is high on many wish lists.

Hard to say other than shoulder harnesses, what STC you might want in the safety area. If you buy a B model, no STC is required to add fixed shoulder harnesses in the manner Cessna designed when the plane was built. Fixed shoulder harnesses were an available accessory. If you want retracting harnesses, and most of us do, you will need an STC for all practical purposes to install them in any 170. If you buy an A (or a '48) you will need an STC to install a harness mounting method as none was installed at the factory. And likely any STC you use for the mounting method will also cover the harness. (now for those who know better, I'm fully aware of the ways to install shoulder harnesses without an STC in any 170 but that discussion is to long for this post)

As for other STCs or mods, thats just to hard to say. We don't know what you want to do with this plane, heck we don't even know for sure what model it is or how it's currently equipped.

I wish I knew more about it too. Don't even have a tail number at the moment :/

I plan to use it primarily as a friend and family hauler (two adults and a kid), with most flights in socal/NorCal, and neighboboring states.

Lycomings are notorious for rust on the cams/tappets if they've been sitting for any amount of time. If it's been sitting, even for only a few months, proceed with caution.

IMHO the power is nice, but the constant speed prop is what makes the conversion. If it doesn't have one, I'd be budgeting for one. Most spec'd out a typical Hartzell, but a lot of those props have the older hub which is subject to a 100 hour eddy current inspection. Finding someone to do this can be a real pain. Props with the non ad up hub are available, but for more money. There is an STC for a MT prop which I imagine is awesome. I thought Hartzell recently STC'd a composite prop for it as well, so that may be another option. If you can swing the extra cash either would be a good upgrade over the old aluminum Hartzells due to weight. The 180/cs combo tends to make the airplanes nose heavy.

I have a B model with the Avcon conversion and an older hartzell constant speed. The plane is fantastic for family cruising. It easily hauls my wife and 2 small kids out of any small grass strip on any day, is comfy, and is economical (8gph). It's not fast and could use about 10 more gallons of fuel for cross country, but otherwise it's pretty hard to beat.

DEM

Pay attention to what DEM has said there. He said a lot meaning $$$$$$$$$$$ if you don't listen and get caught. All engines that sit for long periods are subject to rust. The original C-145/0-300 would be considered by most to have a better track record than a Lycoming given the same period of inactivity.

There are few 180 conversions that do not have a constant speed prop. Now that I said that 20 guys will post they have one. And DEM is right, it is not the engine but the CS prop you can install that is the attraction of the installation. If there was a CS available for the C-145/0-300, I dare say no one would convert to a Lycoming.

But what CS is on the plane. Get one that falls under a expensive AD and there goes $$$$$$$$ to either continually comply OR replace it. CS props are not cheap.

Fact is when considering this airplane I'd say your number one concern to clear in your mind is the entire engine and prop installation.

1. Is the installation as it is legal meaning all the correct parts called out by the STC (or other method of approval) and all of those parts installed per the STC (or other method approval).
2. Is the installation legally documented and do you have all the documents such as installation drawings to keep it legal.
3. Finally are all of the parts of the installation still airworthy

Actually you can and should apply that simple list to the entire plane.

root_of_all_evil wrote:... To properly set my own expectations, I'm interested in getting your experiences with annuals (typical duration, cost) should-do STCs (safety stuff first, later performance and usability like tank upgrade and cs prop, what others?), things to watch out for or avoid, etc.

A possible answer to most of your questions ...and to supplement what Bruce has posted... is to contact a first-rate aircraft maintenance facility and ask them what they will charge you to perform a full Annual Inspection on the airplane you intend to purchase. They should be able to quote your a price for the Inspection only...(no repairs)...and that will partially answer one of your questions. The rest of the answer will depend upon what is found during that inspection. The typical labor for an annual inspection only on a single engined Cessna will run the gamut from $750 to $1500 (possibly more in some locales such as NY, SFO, etc.) But that is actually one of the easiest answers to obtain.... so call 'em and ask. If you have no idea who to call, then for your first inspection use a genuine Cessna Service Center. After-all.... if you're purchasing, the Annual Inspection is the ONLY inspection which will accomplish what you need for decision-purposes. That inspection should catch any questionable issues that have already been cautioned. IMO.

gahorn wrote:

root_of_all_evil wrote:... To properly set my own expectations, I'm interested in getting your experiences with annuals (typical duration, cost) should-do STCs (safety stuff first, later performance and usability like tank upgrade and cs prop, what others?), things to watch out for or avoid, etc.

A possible answer to most of your questions ...and to supplement what Bruce has posted... is to contact a first-rate aircraft maintenance facility and ask them what they will charge you to perform a full Annual Inspection on the airplane you intend to purchase. They should be able to quote your a price for the Inspection only...(no repairs)...and that will partially answer one of your questions. The rest of the answer will depend upon what is found during that inspection. The typical labor for an annual inspection only on a single engined Cessna will run the gamut from $750 to $1500 (possibly more in some locales such as NY, SFO, etc.) But that is actually one of the easiest answers to obtain.... so call 'em and ask. If you have no idea who to call, then for your first inspection use a genuine Cessna Service Center. After-all.... if you're purchasing, the Annual Inspection is the ONLY inspection which will accomplish what you need for decision-purposes. That inspection should catch any questionable issues that have already been cautioned. IMO.

If you cant find a service center, ask another Cessna 170 enthusiast to go with you to look it over. Also be prepared to write a check for hidden incidentals. There is a lot of pitfalls in buying someone elses aircraft. Pay attention to the logbook entries. If it only has annual after annual in the logbook, look for a different airplane, its not for you.

canav8 wrote:[... Pay attention to the logbook entries. If it only has annual after annual in the logbook, look for a different airplane, its not for you.

I know (or think I know) what Doug is suggesting here: If the airplane only has annual inspection after annual inspection in the logbooks... that implies one of two things: Either the airplane is not flying much between annual inspections (and sitting airplanes suffer more in some ways than those that regularly fly).... OR... the airplane is not experiencing the common things that need service/repair from year to year and the logbooks might be fiction (either by the inspections being cursory/"pencil-whipped", or by omission of factual details.)

There are exceptions to that general-rule however. I know of several airplanes in excellent condition which are stored properly and not often flown, therefore their mx logs primarily are those of annual inspections. But those examples are clearly excellent airplanes by obvious appearance, resembling museum pieces. I've already said my opinion that should cover every possibility: Get a full, annual inspection performed on any airplane you intend to buy and operate with you and your family. A "good look-see" ...even by an experienced 170 owner,... doesn't adequately examine an airplane or document the condition. (But it might be a good start to determine if a particular airplane is worth spending money on an annual inspection.)

You know this question comes up at least once a month, minimum and that's a good sign for us as a collective group that new potential owners or new owners come to our association. George has hammered us enough that I think almost everyone shares his view of carrying out an annual at purchase time, as a true way of knowing what's in front of a buyer. Maybe we need a whole section / consolidation of these posts under the heading " know before you buy" or "Buyers guide" for these new members. Sure doing a search would enable similar results but new members likely would be overwhelmed by the number of posts. Is there an easy way to do this? Or am I suggesting another project in the face of the many other pressing projects awaiting ownership?

c170b53 wrote:You know this question comes up at least once a month, minimum and that's a good sign for us as a collective group that new potential owners or new owners come to our association. George has hammered us enough that I think almost everyone shares his view of carrying out an annual at purchase time, as a true way of knowing what's in front of a buyer. Maybe we need a whole section / consolidation of these posts under the heading " know before you buy" or "Buyers guide" for these new members. Sure doing a search would enable similar results but new members likely would be overwhelmed by the number of posts. Is there an easy way to do this? Or am I suggesting another project in the face of the many other pressing projects awaiting ownership?

All it takes is time.... and a willingness to run the risk of being blamed for "editing" -out someone's input because the assembler-of-posts wants to place more import on his own opinion.... (Jim, I think this is an excellent idea you've just suggested.... a "New Member Welcome" / "Buyer's Guide" booklet.... authored by Jim Mc!

gahorn wrote: All it takes is time.... and a willingness to run the risk of being blamed for "editing" -out someone's input because the assembler-of-posts wants to place more import on his own opinion.... (Jim, I think this is an excellent idea you've just suggested.... a "New Member Welcome" / "Buyer's Guide" booklet.... authored by Jim Mc!

In my completely unbiased opinion, this is a fantastic idea. Would be willing to be a contributor if the purchase goes through, for the newbie perspective.

R-O-A-E, there's years of advice here on buying a plane, you just have to hunt it down in the search engine. Further additions to the data base are always welcome.
For sure a new guide certainly would be in need of an experienced moderator

Big problem is people usually buy the airplane first then join the type club, so they will not benefit from a buyers guide, but an ownership guide would benefit all users IMO. Yes George is correct in assumptions of my post. A new aircraft buyer that is usually frugal will not pay for a pristine example of a 170 although they want one. My point is that anybody that doesn't log maintenance in their logbooks other then Annuals is not being forthright. These aircraft require maintenance all the time and it is required to be documented even if it is Owner Preventive Maintenance.(IE a tire change)