Hatz Classic
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jon s blocker
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:56 pm
Doug,
I think this info about the Rotec was told to me in confidence. I was a little hesitant to say anything because I know how things get blown out of preportion on the web. The main problem that they said they were having was to get the engine up to operating temperatures. They are located in BC so I can understand it is cold there. And this info was from a fairly new employee there. I would hate for him to lose his job or anything because of something said/misunderstood via a phone conversation. He also said it was a good engine....just that I would be better off going with something tried and true. But then I am building a bush plane and the prospect of having to repair something in the boonies would be much easier with the Lyc.
I had heard through the grapevine that the Rotec powered Radial "was" suppose to be at OSH last summer but due to not being done it didn't make it.
I think this info about the Rotec was told to me in confidence. I was a little hesitant to say anything because I know how things get blown out of preportion on the web. The main problem that they said they were having was to get the engine up to operating temperatures. They are located in BC so I can understand it is cold there. And this info was from a fairly new employee there. I would hate for him to lose his job or anything because of something said/misunderstood via a phone conversation. He also said it was a good engine....just that I would be better off going with something tried and true. But then I am building a bush plane and the prospect of having to repair something in the boonies would be much easier with the Lyc.
I had heard through the grapevine that the Rotec powered Radial "was" suppose to be at OSH last summer but due to not being done it didn't make it.
Well, rest assured that I'm not trying to make mountains out of molehills. I certainly don't want to get anyone fired. I talked with the folks at Murphy today and all I mentioned was that I'd heard they had experienced some problems and could they fill me in on their experience with the engine and the company.
The woman who answered the phone at Murphy (Carol??? I'm terrible with names) suggested I contact Stephan Maroif and gave me his number. He was their (Murphy's) head sales guy for many years and recently took a job with Rotax Canada (just to add to the Rotec/Rotax confusion, the Rotax Canada company's full name is Rotech Research Canada Ltd. and their website is http://www.rotec.com
).
I called Stephan and we talked for about 20 minutes about the engine and his experiences. Yes they had some problems and Stephan's overriding opinion was the engine is still new to the market and the problems they had were related to a new company "cutting its teeth". The issues he commented on were:
1. Engine parts (cylinders) not painted which lead to them rusting early on. Certainly not what you want to have happen after spending $15-$20k. For me that shouldn't be a problem since I plan on having the engine painted. I already asked Rotec about this and they can do it. Why they don't do it as a matter of course, I don't know.
2. Ignition problems. They had a couple problems with the electronic ignition which was cleared up with a new unit.
3. Spark plug wires. No real problems, just a comment on how they were made. Apparently the wire and plug cap are one unit so if you need to replace a plug wire you can't just take the cap off and put it on a new wire. You need the whole thing from end to end.
4. Cooling. I think the "new guy" you talked to may have gotten the problem reversed. According to Stephan the problem was a fully cowled Rotec running too hot. They couldn't get the temps down which prevented them from having the Rebel @ Osh. He admitted that part of that was due to a very tight timeline and that they (Murphy) rushed to get the plane done and did not do enough to ensure the baffling was proper for the installation. If they'd had more time they may have been able to remedy it.
Overall, he liked the engine. He returned to the point that Rotec is still a new company and said that if he were building something he would fly cross country in all the time he would probably choose a Lyc., but if he had disposable income and could deal with the possibility of problems on a still relatively unproven engine then he would install the Rotec.
No engine manufacturer is perfect and I'm not expecting Rotec to be either. It was nice to talk to someone who had actually had problems. All those glowing reports start to make you wonder after a while. I'm going to continue to make calls and research problems as I hear of them. So far, I haven't heard anything yet that would make me give up on the idea. I'm still about 2 years away from ordering one so that's 2 more years for current owners to get time on their engines and see if anything goes wrong.
The woman who answered the phone at Murphy (Carol??? I'm terrible with names) suggested I contact Stephan Maroif and gave me his number. He was their (Murphy's) head sales guy for many years and recently took a job with Rotax Canada (just to add to the Rotec/Rotax confusion, the Rotax Canada company's full name is Rotech Research Canada Ltd. and their website is http://www.rotec.com
).I called Stephan and we talked for about 20 minutes about the engine and his experiences. Yes they had some problems and Stephan's overriding opinion was the engine is still new to the market and the problems they had were related to a new company "cutting its teeth". The issues he commented on were:
1. Engine parts (cylinders) not painted which lead to them rusting early on. Certainly not what you want to have happen after spending $15-$20k. For me that shouldn't be a problem since I plan on having the engine painted. I already asked Rotec about this and they can do it. Why they don't do it as a matter of course, I don't know.
2. Ignition problems. They had a couple problems with the electronic ignition which was cleared up with a new unit.
3. Spark plug wires. No real problems, just a comment on how they were made. Apparently the wire and plug cap are one unit so if you need to replace a plug wire you can't just take the cap off and put it on a new wire. You need the whole thing from end to end.
4. Cooling. I think the "new guy" you talked to may have gotten the problem reversed. According to Stephan the problem was a fully cowled Rotec running too hot. They couldn't get the temps down which prevented them from having the Rebel @ Osh. He admitted that part of that was due to a very tight timeline and that they (Murphy) rushed to get the plane done and did not do enough to ensure the baffling was proper for the installation. If they'd had more time they may have been able to remedy it.
Overall, he liked the engine. He returned to the point that Rotec is still a new company and said that if he were building something he would fly cross country in all the time he would probably choose a Lyc., but if he had disposable income and could deal with the possibility of problems on a still relatively unproven engine then he would install the Rotec.
No engine manufacturer is perfect and I'm not expecting Rotec to be either. It was nice to talk to someone who had actually had problems. All those glowing reports start to make you wonder after a while. I'm going to continue to make calls and research problems as I hear of them. So far, I haven't heard anything yet that would make me give up on the idea. I'm still about 2 years away from ordering one so that's 2 more years for current owners to get time on their engines and see if anything goes wrong.
Doug
I'm certainly not very familiar with these engines or the Hatz or Murphy, etc... but this conversation has some irksome details.
If there is a good engine company out there named "Rotec"...and a competitor named "Rotax" .... and there's an airplane group named "Murphy" that can use either but their guy doesn't like and badmouths one of those engines .... Then, when contacted, it turns out that this Murphy employee who's badbouthing the competition is actually a Rotax employee/sales person... ...and if the competition (Rotax) adopt the competition's name (Rotec) into their own website-name.... this surely smacks of a backhanded attempt to confuse and mis-direct the consumer...and that's just downright DIS-HONORABLE. IMCO
Re: the Rotec:
2. A failed new ignition unit is not a condemnation of an entire engine line. Any new part can fail. Replace it (probably under warranty.) Doh.
3. Replacing the entire unit is the simplest and most common method of repairing ANY engine's ignition lead.
4. If an engine is sold sans-cooling-baffles...then engine cooling is the responsibility of the airframe builder. It's not a failure of the engine mfr.
My univited (and probably uninformed) 2 cents.
If there is a good engine company out there named "Rotec"...and a competitor named "Rotax" .... and there's an airplane group named "Murphy" that can use either but their guy doesn't like and badmouths one of those engines .... Then, when contacted, it turns out that this Murphy employee who's badbouthing the competition is actually a Rotax employee/sales person...
...and if the competition (Rotax) adopt the competition's name (Rotec) into their own website-name.... this surely smacks of a backhanded attempt to confuse and mis-direct the consumer...and that's just downright DIS-HONORABLE. IMCORe: the Rotec:
1. I can understand why an engine mfr may not paint an engine such as this: He doesn't know what color and experimental-builder would desire, and it adds cost. The engine may not be delivered to a seacoast area. The engine is likely to be intended for a highly experimental installation from which factory paint might detract. Paint may adversely affect some installations, and therefore the decision to paint should be left to the final customer (or at least be specified by him.)doug8082a wrote:...1. Engine parts (cylinders) not painted which lead to them rusting early on. Certainly not what you want to have happen after spending $15-$20k. For me that shouldn't be a problem since I plan on having the engine painted. I already asked Rotec about this and they can do it. Why they don't do it as a matter of course, I don't know.
2. Ignition problems. They had a couple problems with the electronic ignition which was cleared up with a new unit.
3. Spark plug wires. No real problems, just a comment on how they were made. Apparently the wire and plug cap are one unit so if you need to replace a plug wire you can't just take the cap off and put it on a new wire. You need the whole thing from end to end.
4. Cooling. I think the "new guy" you talked to may have gotten the problem reversed. According to Stephan the problem was a fully cowled Rotec running too hot. They couldn't get the temps down which prevented them from having the Rebel @ Osh. He admitted that part of that was due to a very tight timeline and that they (Murphy) rushed to get the plane done and did not do enough to ensure the baffling was proper for the installation. If they'd had more time they may have been able to remedy it....
.
2. A failed new ignition unit is not a condemnation of an entire engine line. Any new part can fail. Replace it (probably under warranty.) Doh.
3. Replacing the entire unit is the simplest and most common method of repairing ANY engine's ignition lead.
4. If an engine is sold sans-cooling-baffles...then engine cooling is the responsibility of the airframe builder. It's not a failure of the engine mfr.
My univited (and probably uninformed) 2 cents.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
gahorn,
You may have misread Dougs post. The guy he talked to no longer works for Murphy. Also, the guy I talked to didn't bad mouth the Rotec.....he just suggested that if I were using my plane for bush flying I may be better off with the Lyc. due to support in the boonies. This was the main reason I never comment very often on these threads....things get unintentionally mixed up from what one person is saying vs. what another person is reading.
Doug,
I agree....the "new" employee probably had it screwed up. Overall he had pretty much the same comments as Steve had to you. Overall it was a good engine but still a young company. I am also like you...a couple years til completion and I still really like the looks of the Rotec. I am taking the same approach as you....I will wait til I am at that point and then decide.
You may have misread Dougs post. The guy he talked to no longer works for Murphy. Also, the guy I talked to didn't bad mouth the Rotec.....he just suggested that if I were using my plane for bush flying I may be better off with the Lyc. due to support in the boonies. This was the main reason I never comment very often on these threads....things get unintentionally mixed up from what one person is saying vs. what another person is reading.
Doug,
I agree....the "new" employee probably had it screwed up. Overall he had pretty much the same comments as Steve had to you. Overall it was a good engine but still a young company. I am also like you...a couple years til completion and I still really like the looks of the Rotec. I am taking the same approach as you....I will wait til I am at that point and then decide.
Holy Cow! First we find out George uses a certain online auction site, now he's joining the conversation on Experimental aircraft engines???!!! <clutches chest ala Fred Sanford> 
George, your $.02 is always welcome. As is anyone else's constructive critique. Lord knows there are plenty of folks with more experience than me and getting a fresh outlook is always a good thing. That's why we have the forum, right?
I agree with your points on the "problems" raised in my phone call. While I can see where those items may upset some customers, there wasn't anything that raised any major alarms. As for "badmouthing" the competition... I really didn't get that impression and maybe I didn't do the best job of relating the conversation. I guess you could read it that way. Of course, you always have to expect a certain degree of "fact twisting" when making these calls... people who had bad experiences are likely to highlight those, a competitor likely won't speak highly of the competition, someone who spent $15-20K isn't necessarily going to admit it was a mistake even is it was, etc., ect. You need to have your BS radar on when talking to these folks, but it still can be informative.
The fact that Rotec is a young company and has yet to have an engine go to TBO (1000 hours as I recall) was something I weighed and was/am willing to take a chance on. My outlook is one of "so far so good therefore I still plan on buying one unless a significant problem with the engine crops up by the time I'm ready to put down the money". In other words, they appear to have a pretty good thing going and unless they screw it up or it self destructs, I'll probably end up buying one. In the mean time I continue to watch and do research.
<clutches chest ala Fred Sanford> George, your $.02 is always welcome. As is anyone else's constructive critique. Lord knows there are plenty of folks with more experience than me and getting a fresh outlook is always a good thing. That's why we have the forum, right?
I agree with your points on the "problems" raised in my phone call. While I can see where those items may upset some customers, there wasn't anything that raised any major alarms. As for "badmouthing" the competition... I really didn't get that impression and maybe I didn't do the best job of relating the conversation. I guess you could read it that way. Of course, you always have to expect a certain degree of "fact twisting" when making these calls... people who had bad experiences are likely to highlight those, a competitor likely won't speak highly of the competition, someone who spent $15-20K isn't necessarily going to admit it was a mistake even is it was, etc., ect. You need to have your BS radar on when talking to these folks, but it still can be informative.The fact that Rotec is a young company and has yet to have an engine go to TBO (1000 hours as I recall) was something I weighed and was/am willing to take a chance on. My outlook is one of "so far so good therefore I still plan on buying one unless a significant problem with the engine crops up by the time I'm ready to put down the money". In other words, they appear to have a pretty good thing going and unless they screw it up or it self destructs, I'll probably end up buying one. In the mean time I continue to watch and do research.
Doug
Dave, Are you talking about the Hatz Bantam? If I ever go the LSA route I'd definitely consider it. Especially since he's working a version that will have the Rotec R2800 (7cyl. radial - 110hp) on it.
Check him out at:
http://www.hatzbantam.com/fly%20a%20hat ... iplane.htm
Check him out at:
http://www.hatzbantam.com/fly%20a%20hat ... iplane.htm
Doug
Yeah, it is a great looking machine. It was also featured in the November 2006 issue of Sport Aviation:
http://www.hatzbantam.com/hatz_final.pdf
http://www.hatzbantam.com/hatz_final.pdf
Doug