Cessna 170 Loan Issues

[blueldr]

I personally don't care much for log books. Lack of same would not preclude my buying any airplne that I really wanted. A detailed inspection is all that I care about. If an airplane has been wrecked and then properly repaired it would not be a stopper for me. A detailed inspection should reveal doubtful repairs to the qualified eye. A test flight might also be helpful. There are a lot of good airplanes out there that have had serious damage and proper repairs that are good buys.

[juredd1]

I apologize for the delays in getting a response back in and thanking everyone for their input. I don't get much computer time in the evenings once the wife and kids are home and most of my breaks at work today have been taken by other issues.....mainly trying to get a loan.

I didn't mean to get any arguments going even though it probably helped me get much needed info. I do appreciate the input and there are two many names to list them all but thank you.

It's tough for me, as I don't know all the ins and outs to ask when asking folks about their airplane. I am 6 hours to the closest one and 12-14 hours away from the ones I really want to look at. Not being a tail wheel pilot current and having never flown either of them I am just going off forum post, articles I've read and conversations with my Uncle with him giving me some suggestions on his tail wheel experience and his experience with the planes that other folks have owned that he knew. The B has the bigger flaps and will get you in slower but the A is a good plane that you don't want to pass up. He thinks the performance between the two is near equal and it's mostly based upon the pilots ability to fly his airplane.

I am exhausted in this process. Not knowing what to ask and look for when I am talking to a seller. It's just a time consuming pain staking process and I am scared to death I will make the wrong decision once it's made. I want to totally trust everyone that I talk to but I know that is not being realistic. Why is this plane better than this one, is it worth the price difference? Then the loan process, back to why I opened this thread.

Thanks for listening to me wine about this airplane search. There is a lot of worse things in life worry about....right?

Justin

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

There is a lot of worse things in life worry about....right?Justin

Yes there is and it is important to keep this in mind.

This process is exhausting. You first have to figure out how your going to finance it. Of course often one decides to buy a plane and then finds out financing wasn't as easy as they thought. Once you get it figured out a more serious search begins.

In that time you learn everything you can which you have started to do. Right now you probably would be happy owning any 170. But after that wears off you might realize you'd really like to have a factory stock airplane or maybe you'd like to modify the heck out of one to push the performance envelope. Wouldn't it be nice if the plane you happened to buy was a good candidate for what you might want to do with the plane. Don't buy a polished factory stock plane if you want to mod it to death and don't buy a highly modified example if factory stock is what you want.

Develop a a list of questions to ask the sellers. The questions are pretty much the same no matter what 170 you might end up with in fact any airplane really.

[ghostflyer]

I have had all my aircraft documentation lost due to flooding ,2 years ago and even the back up logs were lost also so does that make it a lessor aircraft ,no. The aircraft was safe else where. If the aircraft has been in good maintenance for the last 5 years there shouldnt be any surprises. A good train eye will pick up any bogas parts or shoddy workman- ship. Thats why a pre purchase inspection is the most important inspection ever to be carried out. When I am doing a appraisal for a client I inspect the aircraft first [and make notes on the condition of the aircraft] and THEN read the log books and see if it marries up. I then reinspect the aircraft and see what has been written in the log book is fact. I have found repairs written up that were not done due to the shop getting the aircraft mixed up. So really it goes on aircraft condition now.
There are very few banking people know anything about aircraft and some have some outrageous ideas so its a education process first to them before asking them for money. AOPA is very helpful in this regard.

[GAHorn]

In THEORY ..if an airplane passes an annual inspection it is deemed "airworthy" and therefore that's all a knowlegeable bank should require of it.

But to a banker...EVERY loan is a "personal" loan, regardless of the collateral offered. It's important therefore to have a long-term relationship with your banker. Most folks these days see a teller (i.e. a temporary employee) occasionally...but otherwise rarely have any relationship at all to a true "banker"...i.e., an officer of the bank, preferably someone on the BOARD of the bank.

When you have a business relationship with your banker, with a record of previously satisfactory loan pay-offs....then it will likely make no difference at all if you're wanting to finance an airplane, a boat, a house, a business, or a piece of artwork.

Now that you have revealed you are actually shopping around for a loan, it implies you have no business relationship with any banker, and that is making it tough to finance an object of which the average loan-officer has no knowlege or experience. He will fund a loan only for the items with which he is familar...such as home-equity, or other collateralized items of value (commercial-paper/stock/bonds/etc.)

As for what to consider when shopping for an airplane... I suggest you quit letting unfamiliar bankers tell you what airplane you can have. Decide for yourself what you want, decide the amount you can afford or can offer collateral for, and research here and elsewhere for the info on how to select the best example relative to price.

Many discussion topics can be found in these forums on how to select, inspect, and purchase your airplane, and of course, lots of knowlegable folks here are eager to asisst.

Good luck.... and Welcome to our group!

[DaveF]

Justin,

Relax, you're doing ok. Like Bruce said, buying an airplane is exhausting. Remember that the only thing harder than buying an airplane is selling one. All the airplane's problems belong to the seller, but the instant you buy the airplane all the problems belong to you, so don't rush. Also remember that there's nothing we on the 170 forum like more than talking about 170s, so don't worry about wearing us out with questions.

[bagarre]

Loan approval aside, it took me almost a year to find 81D...and there were still surprise.

[Brad Brady]

In THEORY ..if an airplane passes an annual inspection it is deemed "airworthy" and therefore that's all a knowlegeable bank should require of it.

Well said George,
In theory when the APIA signs the aircraft off as passing an annual, He is actually saying he has looked at every thing, including every repair and mod that has been incorporated in that aircraft. He has deemed all work satisfactory, and the condition of the aircraft is within (this becomes convoluted), standards of new. That's why I always loose money on an initial inspection. I charge 14 Hrs. at shop rate to do an inspection. I normally spend more than that just working through the paperwork on a sixty year old aircraft. In reality, an inspector is looking for (to kill you items), which are every were. Full Log books are good, but not necessary, to deem an aircraft worth owning.

[GAHorn]

...In theory when the APIA signs the aircraft off as passing an annual, He is actually saying he has looked at every thing, including every repair and mod that has been incorporated in that aircraft. He has deemed all work satisfactory, and the condition of the aircraft is within (this becomes convoluted), standards of new. ....

I know what you mean...but that's not what you wrote. The annual inspection does NOT attest that the aircraft meets "standards of new". If it's a used aircraft it cannot meet those standards.
Instead, that inspection means the aircraft has been found to meet it's type certificate, or otherwise properly-altered status, .... A full set of records should reflect the history leading to that status ...and those logs should support the claimed value of the aircraft*...but the annual inspection alone should confirm the aircraft is what the type certificate claims it is, and that it is in airworthy condition meeting it's airworthiness certificate requirements. (* The logs should provide a record of flight time and operating times on the engine and accys' which in-turn reflect value. The annual can "pass" a 3,000 hour engine as meeting airworthiness standards, yet a knowlegeable person would recognize that engine probably needs about $20K of work before it has any worth as collateral.)

An annual also does not indicate anything as regards the aircraft's market-value, ...for that would require a statement of condition relevant to other aircraft of similar model and equipment.....something an annual does not accomplish.

A lender wants to know not only exactly WHAT he is lending money on, but that the collateral meets it's stated condition, and has value in excess of the lent amount plus down payment. All the annual does for a lender is testify to the identity and function of the collateral...not the value.

The idiocy of the bankers who insist upon a full set of logs is indicated by the fact that "all logs since new" says nothing about today's level of airworthiness. A wreck can have a full set of logs....yet be worthy only of the salvage yard, if a fresh annual is not accomplished satisfactorily.

[3958v]

Greg you appology is accepted. I just wanted to point out that many 170 owners are not big on mods. Almost nothing on that whle list of mods interests me. The only one I would be interested in at this point would be the Continental 360 and the cost to do that is prohibitive for any 170s. I come from a background that leads me to not give a damn whether I fly at 95 or 100kts. Just want to be able to fly low. The 170 can carry all I need to carry, I have learned to pack light. Please be aware though I have no problem with you doing what ever you want with your airplane as this is America and you own it. I believe you did what makes economic sense for your desires when you bought a 180 but I wonder how long before you want the 185 then the Helio Courier. My economic position will have me flying my 48 till I quit flying and I am quite satisfied with that as I just enjoy flying and looking out the window.
Bill K

PS I cant help much on the financing question as I sold a piece of construction equipment to get the cash to buy my plane. Just be carefull that you have a plan B after buying the plane if you suddenly find metal in the oil down the road a short piece. That can happen to any of us any time.

[bigrenna]

delete

[GAHorn]

Decide what you want, and buy the BEST example you can afford...if your goal is to fly.
If your goal is to tinker on a project, buy the worst example as cheaply a you can, and you'll be thrilled.
Anything in between will likely prove a disappointment.

[bigrenna]

delete

[docfoley]

I thought it didn't matter which model you had, as long as it was red

Buy the best airplane you can with the money you have - and FLY it. That's what really matters.

I'm looking for a B on the other hand.

Charley

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I thought it didn't matter which model you had, as long as it was red
Charley

Oh brother. Another one to watch very carefully.