1 takeoff and 2 landings (video) and some landing discussion

[1SeventyZ]

Disclaimer: This video is not exciting in any sense of the word. I figured some of you might just enjoy watching a 170 if you have nothing better to do.

http://www.vimeo.com/4931556

I've been having a tough time with my landings lately so I asked my dad to film a few (calm winds.) I've been trying to consistently do "tail-low wheel landings" but have struggled with all the things that make landings hard: the right target airspeed for short final, and the round-out prior to touching the mains. I used to do all 3-pointers but have really taken to the wheel landings this last year.

I've had some harrowing experiences in crosswinds lately, and it always seems to be exacerbated by any bouncing. Anybody else experience that early-170 gear super-rebound-to-weathervane maneuver? I admit my crosswind chops are not up to snuff, but the gear can sometimes make the experience a whole lot more exciting, and I curse, until I land on something bumpy and then I love them again.

[dacker]

This sounds very familiar! I have had my 170A for seven years now, and I have probably done a few thousand touch and go's. In the past I did three pointers almost exclusively and didn't have much of a problem but wheelies were difficult. The airplane was a little squirrely, so I realigned my gear and landings became ten times easier. I started doing wheelies more, and now I am at the point where I do them almost exclusively ... to the point that my three pointers suck.

We had an especially windy/gusty spring here in Texas this year resulting in some really crappy three point landings on my part. The springy A model gear doesn't help, but I can't blame it on just the airplane. One problem is the fact that I almost always do full flap landings, that certainly makes it a little more difficult in gusty or crosswind conditions. That is one thing that may help, but I don't think is the root of the problem. I have obviously changed something on my landings and the only thing I know to do is to keep going out and practicing.

It seems that the biggest problem when doing a three pointer is the lack of good positive control after the flair while waiting for the stall. This is the point where a small gust can lift you a few feet, or cause drift while sinking down to the runway in that three point attitude. In other words, no matter how well you set up your approach, everything can change in that last two feet. I am beginning to wonder if something is happening at the tailwheel to cause me to swerve after touchdown. I have set up a lot of what I thought would be perfect landings only to get hard swerve at roll out.
I would get a CFI to ride with me, but at the chance of sounding overconfident, I don't know of one that has more experience than me in a 170 that would be able to help.

Sorry I can only commiserate and not offer any good advice. Good luck and practice, practice, practice!
David

[15A]

I should have known something was up when I turned final and saw my friends "hanging around" at the end of the runway. The wind was howling and they were taping every landing at the Cranland breakfast fly-in. And I got caught red-handed with a 'not quite a perfect' landing. A little hot, should have wheeled it, etc, etc, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6c5DDs8-qY

[1SeventyZ]

And I got caught red-handed with a 'not quite a perfect' landing.

Hey! You kept it straight, which is the important thing. Nice throttle work on the save. I had one just like that the other day in a ~11kt wind that seemed to last forever, there was a lot of throttle jockeying going on and I should have just gone around.

Dacker, I think my wheel alignment is pretty good. In calm winds it feels pretty directionally stable on the roll after a wheelie, it's just the crosswinds that tend to get me if I've bounced. I've done my fair share of bouncing, usually after I misjudge the flare and stall 6" off the ground. I drop, and those springy gear give me a good hop, and it's in that moment that I usually get caught combing my hair, because the weathervaning happens. If I can get it on smooth it usually doesn't happen. Perhaps the wheel alignment changes slightly when the gear are heavily loaded, causing some directional "influence?"

I was out with a friend in his newer Maule M7 yesterday and he bounced a little on a wheelie and it was a non-event. Those gear are so stiff that it didn't matter apparently.

Guys have been successfully landing their early-gear 170's in strong crosswinds since before my father was born, so I'm sure the problem is me. I'd just like to hear some thoughts on the topic.

[markeg1964]

I tend to have the opposite problem. My crosswind or gusty landings feel OK while my calm wind landings tend to result in a small bounce. I have always assumed the wind covers up my poor landing abilities. My main problem with calm wind landings is judging the flair. I often flair just a little high and end up dropping more than expected. Due to this, most of my landings tend to be tail low wheel landings – which I find to be the easiest. I think my problem is not looking far enough down the runway. I tend to look 50 to 100 feet in front of myself while landing instead of down towards the far end of the runway. When I look towards the end of the runway, I’m better at judging my height and my flair is much better. Problem is, I have a tough time breaking my habit of not looking towards the end of the runway.

In gusty crosswind conditions I make slightly tail low wheel landings with two notches of flaps. Instead of fairing, I level off and try flying down to the runway. I don’t try to touch down or even keep it down until I have both wheels planted. I then try and get the tail down as soon as I can as that is the toughest part of crosswind landings for me.

[Robert Eilers]

Consistently performing good crosswind takeoffs and landings in the 170 A or B with the stock gear takes practice and learning a few tricks. After many hours in my 170B, with stock gear, I learned the airplane handles better in gusty crosswind takeoffs if I push forward slightly on the control wheel (after tail comes up) placing weight on the mains (which takes the boggle out of them) until my speed gets up sufficiently to make clean rotation. In strong, gusty crosswinds, I find one notch of flaps and a threshold speed of 70 IAS allows me to place the upwind wheel down with authority then close the throttle and push forward on the control wheel reducing the angle of attack and placing weight on the mains. It is still necessary to maintain the crosswind correction, or increase it in gusts, and fly the downwind main wheel and tailwheel onto the runway. In particularly bad crosswinds I will begin evenly applying slight brake pressure once both mains are on the runway and while the tailwheel is still up. The evenly applied slight brake pressure helps to overcome the weatervaning tendency - just make sure you don't over do it with the brake pressure.

Using the crab to a side slip crosswind technique provides you with the opportunity to predetermine if it is possible to adequately compensate for the crosswind with the side slip. If in the side slip it is not possible to maintain runway alignment go around, try again or go some place else. In particularly bad situations when it is necessary to land it is possible to compensate for the crosswind with a full side slip and place the upwind main tire on the runway between gusts. The trick is keeping it there and not weather vaning during the next gust. Doing this is best accomplished by carrying some throttle and speed while you work the downwind wheel and tailwheel onto the runway and then appy brake pressure, keeping the yoke pulled back into your lap. In seriously bad situations using a taxiway better aligned with the runway is a good option.

With the 170 practice and currency seem to be more important than in other more forgiving models.

[1SeventyZ]

Great reply, Robert. Thanks.

[dacker]

Well, I think I finally got my groove back on! I had changed something and wasn't getting very good landings anymore. I figured that I must be overcontrolling/overreacting on touch down so I just concentrated on doing everything extra smoothly and in slow motion and I have been getting some beautiful landings... even with gusty conditions. I guess I just got out of practice. That's why I enjoy these airplanes so much... just when you start getting cocky, they have to slap you back down to earth and make you pay attention to your flying techniques.
David

[AR Dave]

Wheel Landings in a Skywagon
By Bill White
May 16, 1999
________________________________________

The Big Picture
The highest percentage of accidents occur in the landing phase of a flight (37%). There have been a couple good articles in the past discussing three point (full stall) landings. Cessna 180/185 Club members have been doing a good job keeping us informed about aircraft maintenance information, but not much is said about what you have to do every time you fly - land the airplane. From the many pilots I've talked with (I have over 300 180/185's insured). Most say they use a three point (nose high attitude) full stall technique for the majority of their landings. They indicated this is the way they were taught. Set up the airplane, pull power and flair a few feet AGL, hold the yoke back until the airplane settles on the runway. For wheel landings carry a little extra speed and pin it on the runway. Nothing could be further from the truth. Neither procedure is the "best" way to do it.

I believe many of you were never initially trained to do wheel landings the right way, I wasn't. Most are told you only do wheel landings in strong cross winds. Some are afraid of them. Except for soft field landings, I believe a wheel landing is actually the preferred way to land......it's easy. I'll briefly discuss why. Many of you know of the "MAF" Missionary Aviator's Fellowship out of Redlands, CA. For over 20 years they have been training their pilots to fly C180/185's and 206's in countries all around the world and still have over 40 180/185's in service. Their training consists of hundreds of classroom and flight hours with several training flights to Idaho to fly the back country. They have instructors with over 10,000 hours of 180/185 time alone. I know there are other training facilities, but for my money these guys are the real experts. They have to fly these aircraft for a living in all conditions. Obviously they had to develop, standardize and use procedures and techniques to insure consistency and safety. Guess What? They use the wheel landing 98% of the time, except on soft surfaces.

Landings depend on feeling, reaction,and response. You want each landing to be as "predictable" as possible and a wheel landing is the most "predictable". Landing on wheels allows you to:
1) better see the approach, touchdown, and rollout.
2) Put all of the weight on the main wheels for most effective braking (a three point landing puts 500-600 pounds on the tail, this weight is now"free wheeling"),
3) eliminate more lift because the angle of attack is less, keeping you on the runway,
4) prevent the chance of floating, or drifting in cross winds, and
5) maintain better directional control on a bounced or a bad landing.

Misconception: Wheel landings are done at a higher approach speed. Truth: A typical good wheel landing approach is at 60 knots IAS unless conditions require differently. Yes you saw it correctly 60 knots. Remember a 10% increase in approach speed equals a 21% increase in landing roll! That's a lot folks!
Misconception: You should "pin it on" the runway at touchdown. Truth: If done correctly you never pin it on, you fly it until the wheels 'touch', then chop the power and apply the brakes and there is very little or no bounce. With this approach you have to resist cutting power until the wheels touch. It takes practice.

The Technique
Get established on final. At 1 mile out you should be at 60 knots IAS (depending on wind conditions), 500 feet above the runway and descending at 500 FPM carrying about 13"-14" MP with full flaps. Trimmed to hands off. The aircraft should come over the threshold almost level. When the aircraft is on short final and about 20 feet agl, you should apply slight back pressure on the yoke (don't touch the power), but only for 3 to 4 seconds and then released back to neutral until wheel contact. This will slow the decent down to around 200 fpm until contact. The aircraft will contact the runway in a perfect decent rate eliminating bounce. Remember, do not flair and do not pull your power until you 'feel' the wheels touch (resist the temptation). This has to be learned because your natural instinct is always to pull power. Almost simultaneously when you pull power at wheel contact, come on with as much brakes as you need and hold neutral yoke. The torque from braking will help keep the tail up. Then as the speed is reduced and the tail settles come back with the yoke.

Remember, power controls rate of descent, if you reduce your power your descent rate will increase (even at 2'), then you'll have to flair to compensate and you'll be chasing the airplane. You want as few changes to correct as possible. This technique takes out the guess work - if you're low add power, if high reduce. Never change attitude or trim, it's simple. A full stall landing has everything changing at the same time which includes: power, speed, attitude, yoke, visibility and pitch. This is not as predictable because you're waiting for things to happen, you're chasing it. This wheel landing technique is near bulletproof if learned correctly. It is being used all over the world by pilots much more knowledgeable than I. "MAF" uses wheel landings at all the airports in Idaho they fly into. That includes Soldier's Bar, Allison Ranch, Bernard, Krassel and more. All you do is cut power, brake and turn off the runway. Until you learn it correctly, stick with the technique you're most comfortable with if it works for you. I recommend you practice this with a CFI that really knows the technique. He can better see your mistakes. I took several hours of training from "MAF" a few years ago. It really improved my proficiency. Once correctly learned, you'll wish you had known this years ago. Happy Flying!
Bill White

[futr_alaskaflyer]

I've been working on the MAF technique ever since I read it on here a couple years ago. My thoughts are since the 170 is lighter and not quite as "stable" of an airplane (because of the lighter weight) as a 180/185 the technique deserves a bit of modification as to speeds and distances, but overall I like it for the 170. Not that my wheel landings are great

[AR Dave]

Totally agree about the adjustment of the speeds and distances - good place to start!
I wouldn't post my speed, however I can post that my Stall Horn annoys my kids!
A lot of pilots seem to like the MAF Landing Procedure, so I'll post it every couple of years when the discussion comes around.
Good to have a written out, formal procedure, to work off of.

[dacker]

I too use this for my wheel landings (also modified for the 170) and I believe it is a good method, but it is only half the equation when it comes to what we should carry in our arsenal. The other half being the often maligned old fashioned three pointer. To be truly proficient we need to be good at both and know when to use them.
David

[voorheesh]

Thank you for the great discussion of wheel landings. The only change I make for my 170A with Horton Stol is that I approach at 70mph, enter the flare slightly tail low, and I do it with power at idle. I think I am indicating about 55-60 mph at touchdown and I just release back pressure on the yoke/don't "pin it". The other day I landed at Coalinga, CA with a strong xwind and held a little power touching down on the upwind main and got the tailwheel down before the downwind main. In smooth conditions, it seems like power at idle works better. Maybe that is because of the stol kit. I find it helpfull to transition my attention from the touchdown spot up the runway towards the horizon as I enter the flare using attitude reference only. Getting the tail down smoothly and promptly after a wheel landing helps in directional control. I also practice 3 point/full stall landings and agin find that focus towards the horizon helps. My instructor years ago used to coach "look at the trees" (at the end of the runway). If you get the tail down slightly before the mains, you eliminate the bounce. The Aviat Husky flight manual actually says that and I have noticed Super Cubs like that too. Thanks again AR Dave and others.