Ok, for those who are interested, I finally got my website up. Sorry to dissappoint, but as I mentioned in another post, I'm just barely getting started, so there really isn't anything about the project yet (that'll change soon), but there is a bunch of Hatz info.
I've also migrated my C170 refurb site off my EAA chapter site and onto this one.
Feel free to have a look around:
http://www.damowry.com - home page
http://www.damowry.com/projhatz-main.htm - hatz main page
The website is still under construction so don't be surprised if things change over the next month or so.
Enjoy.
Hatz Classic
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
You Bet! I was resigned to a Lyc O-320 or O-360 until Rotec introduced the R3600 back in 2005. Now there's no way I'd build it without the Rotec.lowNslow wrote:Doug, glad to see you got your Hatz site up and running. It will be fun to watch your progress. I notice you have a picture of the Rotec radial, is that the engine you plan to use?
Doug
Just got off the phone with a rep for one of the kitplane manufacturers. We discussed the Rotec engine and his impression was not all that great. They had put one one on of their planes....it was shipped to Australia...and he said unless you live in a fairly warm climate to stay away from it. Whenever the temp was below 50 they had a heck of a time getting the engine to warm up. I'm sure this could be fixed with some type of restricted cowling but why would you want to cover such a beautiful looking engine. I guess I will be sticking with the good ol' Lyc.
Keith
Keith
Would that have been Hevle Aiation? I know they built a 2-seat Bowers Flybaby with the R2800 that they then sold to Rotec and is now in Australia.WWhunter wrote:Just got off the phone with a rep for one of the kitplane manufacturers. We discussed the Rotec engine and his impression was not all that great. They had put one one on of their planes....it was shipped to Australia...and he said unless you live in a fairly warm climate to stay away from it. Whenever the temp was below 50 they had a heck of a time getting the engine to warm up. I'm sure this could be fixed with some type of restricted cowling but why would you want to cover such a beautiful looking engine. I guess I will be sticking with the good ol' Lyc.
Keith
Interesting feedback. I have to say I really haven't heard or seen anything negative about the engine. I'm still a ways off from committing to it so I'll be sure to do more homework before laying out the $$$.
Doug
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cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4065
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
To see photos from Osh of the bike:
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/Osh/Osh.htm (scroll mid-way down)
The company that built it:
http://www.jrlcycles.com/page/page/4187437.htm
Another version JRL built:
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/ ... otorcycle/
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/Osh/Osh.htm (scroll mid-way down)
The company that built it:
http://www.jrlcycles.com/page/page/4187437.htm
Another version JRL built:
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/ ... otorcycle/
Doug
Doug,
I was on the phone with a Murphy guy.
I am building a Rebel and was telling him I was interested the Rotec. I knew they were building a Rebel with one in it. Apparently they had a lot of trouble getting it to reach operating temperature. He suggested I go with something else. There were other issues also but I can't remember all of them...just that he suggested they have better quality control before buying one.
I do think it is a beautiful engine though!
Keith
I was on the phone with a Murphy guy.
I am building a Rebel and was telling him I was interested the Rotec. I knew they were building a Rebel with one in it. Apparently they had a lot of trouble getting it to reach operating temperature. He suggested I go with something else. There were other issues also but I can't remember all of them...just that he suggested they have better quality control before buying one.
I do think it is a beautiful engine though!
Keith
I've been following Rotec for 4-5 years now and this is the first I've heard of any problems. A thread appeared in the last week or so on the A/C Spruce forum talking about "problems" but the person was not able to provide sources of his information or any specifics as to what the problems were. Only that there were "reports" of "problems".
I spent a solid hour on the phone with Ray Jarvis - the first R3600 customer who built the Nieuport 28. The only problem he could find involved the routing of the throttle & choke cables. He had nothing but positive reviews for the engine.
I've looked long and hard for problem reports for Rotec and haven't found anything. When I get the chance over the next day or two I'm going to call Murphy and see what they have to say. I find it odd that they are providing negative feedback when, according to the Rotec website, as of October '06 Murphy is including the Rotec as an option for the Renegade biplane. http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customers/Murphy.htm
The press release is difficult to corroborate since the Murphy website does not provide links to their press releases.
I exchanged emails with Jim @ Rotec regarding the posts on the A/C Spruce forum any other reported problems and the following is their response:
From: Rotec Engineering [mailto:roteceng@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Thu 3/29/2007 6:49 PM
To: Mowry, Douglas
Subject: RE: Rotec reports
Hi Doug,
You'll note that there is no fact contained in any of the posts. When challenged to produce facts all these guys either withdraw their comments or just seem to not recall where or when they heard this or that.
The web forum is a great way to spread rumour based on gossip without any need to provide fact.
Challenge these guys for some concrete fact and lets see what they can come up with. In 7 and a half years in production this is all they have to work with:
2 Failures both caused by hydraulic lock by clients not adhering to correct procedure
1 Prop strikes requiring a tear down and strip required.
1 crash landing damaging the engine overhaul required.
Now the challenge is to go beyond the above and I'll be interested to see what surfaces. The reports/publications need to be factual in all respects providing names dates and the like.
I'd be surprised if any engine manufacturer out there can match our reliability record.
In a similar incident I was directed to the following after a posting on the web. You'll note a withdrawal of all allegations after a challenge to produce fact was made.
Refer to: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showt ... p?p=315960
This is an interesting thread as I've looked at it from start to finish and in the end it had a great result for us as John Brecher, who started the whole thing, is now gathering up 4 orders for Rotec with the possibility of more. This of course was a direct result of him challenging the rumour mongers for concrete fact.
By the way in correspondence with John this was his final comment on the matter:
"Hi Jim,
...
I'm getting a few emails from folks asking about my concerns and I'm telling them there are NO concerns as it was erroneous information from unqualified sources with intent to discredit Rotec. If you get any reference to my concerns please direct them to me and I will dispel the concerns.
John"
John sums it up well.
Could I ask you to do me a favour and post up all or any part of this reply to you on both sites throwing down the challenge to supply some fact, names and incidents behind these allegations. Let me know if you decide to do so.
As for your Hatz the R3600 is the best engine available for the craft - reliable, powerful on one beautiful piece of engineering; and you're right its for these very reasons that people highly praise our radials - as you say reviews have nothing but good things to say about our engines but then they need to be factual. Rumour mongers like Bruce are old like old women - he vaguely states that he read reports... challenge him to produce these reports. He should be discredited for what he is a gossip and an old women. Could he be our opposition?
Come on Bruce lets see what you've got!
Thanks for letting me know and I look forward to your reply.
Kindest Regards - Jim Chernikeeff BSc
Rotec Engineering Pty Ltd
==
Sales & Business Relations: Jim Chernikeeff : mailto:roteceng@optusnet.com.au
‘phone: 61 3 9502 07 31
Technical support: Paul and Andrea mailto:achernik@bigpond.net.au
Rotec on the Web: http://www.rotecradialengines.com
I spent a solid hour on the phone with Ray Jarvis - the first R3600 customer who built the Nieuport 28. The only problem he could find involved the routing of the throttle & choke cables. He had nothing but positive reviews for the engine.
I've looked long and hard for problem reports for Rotec and haven't found anything. When I get the chance over the next day or two I'm going to call Murphy and see what they have to say. I find it odd that they are providing negative feedback when, according to the Rotec website, as of October '06 Murphy is including the Rotec as an option for the Renegade biplane. http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customers/Murphy.htm
The press release is difficult to corroborate since the Murphy website does not provide links to their press releases.
I exchanged emails with Jim @ Rotec regarding the posts on the A/C Spruce forum any other reported problems and the following is their response:
From: Rotec Engineering [mailto:roteceng@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Thu 3/29/2007 6:49 PM
To: Mowry, Douglas
Subject: RE: Rotec reports
Hi Doug,
You'll note that there is no fact contained in any of the posts. When challenged to produce facts all these guys either withdraw their comments or just seem to not recall where or when they heard this or that.
The web forum is a great way to spread rumour based on gossip without any need to provide fact.
Challenge these guys for some concrete fact and lets see what they can come up with. In 7 and a half years in production this is all they have to work with:
2 Failures both caused by hydraulic lock by clients not adhering to correct procedure
1 Prop strikes requiring a tear down and strip required.
1 crash landing damaging the engine overhaul required.
Now the challenge is to go beyond the above and I'll be interested to see what surfaces. The reports/publications need to be factual in all respects providing names dates and the like.
I'd be surprised if any engine manufacturer out there can match our reliability record.
In a similar incident I was directed to the following after a posting on the web. You'll note a withdrawal of all allegations after a challenge to produce fact was made.
Refer to: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showt ... p?p=315960
This is an interesting thread as I've looked at it from start to finish and in the end it had a great result for us as John Brecher, who started the whole thing, is now gathering up 4 orders for Rotec with the possibility of more. This of course was a direct result of him challenging the rumour mongers for concrete fact.
By the way in correspondence with John this was his final comment on the matter:
"Hi Jim,
...
I'm getting a few emails from folks asking about my concerns and I'm telling them there are NO concerns as it was erroneous information from unqualified sources with intent to discredit Rotec. If you get any reference to my concerns please direct them to me and I will dispel the concerns.
John"
John sums it up well.
Could I ask you to do me a favour and post up all or any part of this reply to you on both sites throwing down the challenge to supply some fact, names and incidents behind these allegations. Let me know if you decide to do so.
As for your Hatz the R3600 is the best engine available for the craft - reliable, powerful on one beautiful piece of engineering; and you're right its for these very reasons that people highly praise our radials - as you say reviews have nothing but good things to say about our engines but then they need to be factual. Rumour mongers like Bruce are old like old women - he vaguely states that he read reports... challenge him to produce these reports. He should be discredited for what he is a gossip and an old women. Could he be our opposition?
Come on Bruce lets see what you've got!
Thanks for letting me know and I look forward to your reply.
Kindest Regards - Jim Chernikeeff BSc
Rotec Engineering Pty Ltd
==
Sales & Business Relations: Jim Chernikeeff : mailto:roteceng@optusnet.com.au
‘phone: 61 3 9502 07 31
Technical support: Paul and Andrea mailto:achernik@bigpond.net.au
Rotec on the Web: http://www.rotecradialengines.com
Doug
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jon s blocker
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:56 pm
buisness reply
I find it interesting that a buisness relations rep would call someone a "gossip and an old women". Let the facts fall where they may, but you would think a company of that stature would certainly be a little more subtle. Just an observation. I think the Rotax rotary is beautiful, and is probably as dependable as all of their other products.
Just to clarify, Rotec and Rotax are two entirely different and unrelated entities.
Rotec Radial Engines produces radial engines only and is based in Australia.
Rotax Aircraft Engines produces the 2 & 4 cyl. we are familiar with on many ultralight and other experimental aircraft (also ATVs, snowmobiles, etc). They are based in Austria.
It can get confusing - Rotec from Australia and Rotax from Austria, but they are two different companies.
Rotec Radial Engines produces radial engines only and is based in Australia.
Rotax Aircraft Engines produces the 2 & 4 cyl. we are familiar with on many ultralight and other experimental aircraft (also ATVs, snowmobiles, etc). They are based in Austria.
It can get confusing - Rotec from Australia and Rotax from Austria, but they are two different companies.
Doug
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jon s blocker
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:56 pm
confusion
AHA! Something new to gossip about! HA! HA! Jon. P.S. Saw a factory Hatz at a fly-in last year, gorgeous airplanes!
Re: confusion
Factory Hatz??? Are you sure it was a Hatz? All Hatz's are plans built aircraft. While some companies do produce kit sub-assemblies (e.g. Makelan produces the fuselage and tail and other components for the Hatz Classic), there is no "factory".jon s blocker wrote: P.S. Saw a factory Hatz at a fly-in last year, gorgeous airplanes!
Doug