STOL Kit for 170A

[pif_sonic]

I am a new reader to this forum and I am in the process of buying a 170A. I just sold a 1964 Cessna 150D, it had a Horton STOL Kit. I really liked it!!!!! I was wondering if any of the current 170 owners have STOL Kits on their aircraft? I know it made a big difference on the 150. Is Horton the best STOL Kit or is there a better one? If anybody has any information about the STOL Kit on the 170 I would love to hear it. Thanks for the info in advance.

[Indopilot]

IMHO Sportsman is much better Brian

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Welcome aboard pif_sonic. Wish I new your first name, pif_sonic
is so formal

Most subjects you can think of have been discussed here before and so there is a lot of information to be found (probably more than you bargin for) by doing a search. I'd put in STOL or VG's as they tend to be in the same threads.

Doesn't mean we can't discuss it again as I'm sure we will.

VGs VGs VGs VGs VGs VGs. There I got that plug in again.
I have no experiance with the Horton or other STOL kits so I can't say how they compare.

[pif_sonic]

Thanks for the warm welcome Bruce. My name is Wayne, nice to meet you. I looked though the forum and read a lot of opinions regarding The Sportsman STOL Kit, The Horton STOL Kit and VG’s. I saw the video of you landing at a fly-in. Nice landing.

Like I said I just sold a 1964 150 D model with the Horton STOL Kit installed. With the Horton STOL Kit I could land that plane in less than 300 consistently. I think it would land in less distance; I just did not have the experience. I only have 200 hrs. I landed that plane in fields, on dirt roads, and alkali flats in Southern Oregon. I want to be able to land the 170 at the same locations when I get some time in the tail-dragger. We have a dirt strip that parallels our primary runway. That makes for great training.

I would like to install VG’s along with a STOL Kit. Do you have a company name that sells the VG’s?

Of all the threads I read no one really told me why the Sportsman STOL Kit was better than the Horton STOL Kit. I see the Sportsman does not come with a STOL Fence. I think with the 150 I had the STOL fence gave the ailerons a lot more control at slow, very slow air speeds.

I will let you know when I take possession of the 170.

Thanks for your time and advice.

Wayne

[lowNslow]

Wayne,
Keep in mind that if you are considering VGs or STOL kits for short field use that the 170 is already a pretty good performer landing short field. The problem is with the stock O-300 engine, you can get yourself into places you can't get out of due to climb performance especially at higher density altitudes.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I echo Karl's statement. I'd suggest you fly your 170 stock and see if it doesn't perform well enough that way.

I'm not sure what your 150 had for an engine but if the power to weight ratio is similar to the 170 the 170 should perform the same. You had less power but it weighed less the 170 is heavier but it has more power.

Don't know what prop is on your new 170 but if you want to get in and back out of tight places you will want to get a climb prop first before wing mods.

After you figure out how your plane flies stock you'll be in a better position to know what wing mod you want. I've said before I feel the VGs give improved control at slower speeds. Wing cuffs change the airfoil and lower stall speeds.

VGs don't make the wing create more lift, so other than more control as you pull the aircraft into the air they won't help the climb. I can't say what if anything the wing cuffs will do.

There are many things to consider VGs cost less and can be installed and de-installed easier. If you have to scrape snow and ice off your wings or you like to wash and wax your plane you may not want VGs.

To the best of my knowledge no VG STC will allow the use of both a wing cuff and VGs nor the other way around as each STC was obtained based on modifying the stock wing.

Micro AeroDynamics Inc. makes VGs that are STC'd for the 170. They are the ones I have. There may be other companies as well.

[Indopilot]

Also welcome Wayne, didn't have time with my first post to say much more than my opinion. Maybe we have been dumb and happy but we have been combining both the Micro VGs with the Robertson STOL as well as the Sportsman STC on our 185's and 206's. Haven't had any problems with any of the manufacturers or the FAA to date. Works great. I posted earlier that in a fly off we did wirh a Robertson 206 against a Sportsman with VG's at 4200 and about 80 degrees the performance between the two were pretty similar.
The Sportsman also made a big difference with our 171. Havn't had a chance to get out and play to much to nail down what it will actually do but feels better. Brian

[zero.one.victor]

Pif, I mean Wayne, you may not be able to consistantly land your 170 as short as you're used to doing in your 150. #1, it's heavier, so there's more inertia/momentum to stop after touchdown. #2, you can't just plop it down like you can a 150. No offense meant, I've had both so I speak from experience. Doing short landings in a tailwheel airplane requires more precise speed and pitch attitude control. You will enjoy the 170 though, it's more work to get it right but more fun too.
I agree that you should maybe just fly it stock before you do any mods, then you'll have a performance baseline to compare any changes to. You'll also have a better idea of just what changes you may want to make to flight characteristics.
I believe VG's are easier & therefore cheaper to install. I would guess that the purchase prices are about the same. Most people seem to be using the VG kits from MicroAerodynamics (I believe CubCrafters also sells VG kits) and the Sportsman STOL cuff kits these days. I just googled it up, looks like Stene Aviation in Montana holds the Sportsman STC now.
http://www.steneaviation.com
http://www.microaero.com
Whereabouts in Oregon are you located?

Eric

[trake]

If ya get a B model and fly it light ya might not feel the need for a STOL kit.

[t7275tr]

I have a 54 B with a Horton STOL kit. It makes a big difference in slow speed flight characteristics. I have flown several other B's without the kit and mine gets off much shorter and lands slower. I know of no downside to the Horton STOL kit. VG's are another viable option for improving slow speed characteristics. I witnessed Bruce's world class short field landing at Petit Jean last year. Does anyone know if VG's are compatible with the Horton kit? If so, it would make an impressive 170.

[alaskan99669]

Is the Sportsman even available for the "A" model? All the documentation I've seen just lists the "B" model. But the published numbers are very impressive for the 170B:
http://www.steneaviation.com/sportsman.htm
Especially distance to clear a 50' obstacle... 780' vs. 1625'
I don't have the kit on mine, but last month I was leaving from a short strip with four people and I would have been a lot more comfortable if a STOL kit got my wheels off the ground a few seconds earlier. I know two people that have the Sportsman on their 170B's and love them. One of them showed me how the Sportsman has a more aggressive cuff than the Horton. Although the Horton has the cool looking fence, he felt Sportsman was a far better performer.

[pif_sonic]

I want to thank everybody for all their information and insight on this subject. I still don’t know which kit I will buy. I guess it’s like the old argument of, do you like a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. Although, I like the Ford myself. They all have their strong and weak points.

I was also wondering with what little experience I have, would I be able to tell the difference in a Horton STOL Kit and a Sportsman STOL Kit?

If any of you fly over the northeastern part of Oregon stop at Baker City (KBKE). We have a nice airport and a great FBO.

Thanks Again for all your help
Wayne