VG's (again, split topic from engine upgrades topic)

[blueldr]

Don't waste your money on VGs. They don't do anything for the Cessna 100 series wing. They really screw it up if you have to use wing covers. Break a couple of them off and you're grounded.
Admittedly' the VGs on the tail help at the bottom end.
The sportsman kit and aileron gap seals are both good.
If I were you, I'd install a long, thin pitched prop and try it out before adding any mods. You probably don't need anything else' but be sure you get the RPM up to at leadt 2500 or 2600 static.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Don't waste your money on VGs. They don't do anything for the Cessna 100 series wing.

I have to strongly disagree with this statement BL. VGs do change the way the wing works and the handling of the 170.

The effect of being able to fly slower than you would ever want to, and increased aileron control/response throughout the flight regime may not be what your looking for but VGs do do that. They won't help you get off the ground faster only because your angle if incodence of the wings is limited by the landing gear stance.

If you plan to use a cover or wash the VGs vigorously they are a pain in the neck.

In the 4 years and 200 hours I've had mine I've never come close to losing enough (5) to make the aircraft unairworthy. Most I've lost when refueling with the fuel hose and then you just reglue them on which is a simple procedure. If you want to read more do a search on VGs, I've posted more on my VG experience elsewhere.

I have never had a Cessna pilot familiar with the 170 ride in the plane and come away unimpressed with the change the VGs make in the control and slow speed capability of the aircraft.

Bottom line. VGs work. You may be able to accomplish the same thing with different mods. VGs are cheap when you compare the purchase and installation of the VGs and alternatives. It is easier to cover or wash a sportsman stall kit than VGs. VGs can easily be removed if not wanted anymore a sportsman stall kit cannot.

[Doherty]

As you Bruce, I have never heard of VG's being unimpressive before. If you can get comfortable flying 2 to 4 MPH above a stall, on short final, then the VG's should be a benifit. I just bought this plane & have not flown it yet. I will fly it for a while, before doing any mods. It already has 180 gear and 180 wing tips. Anyone know if there is any benifit to 180 wingtips? Also, anyone know of an 84 inch prop available for the o-300c?
Thanks

[pdb]

Don't waste your money on VGs. They don't do anything for the Cessna 100 series wing. They really screw it up if you have to use wing covers.

I disagree, both about performance and wing covers. I have VGs and use Kennon mesh covers on my 170. I anticipated that they would be a complete disaster with the covers, snagging on the VGs. In fact, its a non problem, at least with respect to snagging.

The mesh covers themselves are a trade off. If you are away for a while and the wind picks up, you will be glad you have the covers with the spoilers. If it snows, then melts, and then freezes again, the covers can become like epoxy and glass cloth. Then you have a mess that is best dealt with in a heated hanger.

In that case, the mesh covers are not much worse than certain kinds of fabric which has become soaked and then frozen. However, in any kind of wind, the mesh covers are much better.

You boys from Texas, Florida, and other such places are missing all this fun.

[mvivion]

Well, I sort of agree with both sides of the VG question. I have VG's on my airplane, and I would never install them again. I approached this with the idea that they are cheaper than a Sportsman, which I also have extensive experience with.

The VGs did alter the stall characteristics of the airplane. They turned an already mellow stalling airplane into a slightly more mellow stalling airplane.

All the stall speed decrease hyped by everyone did not accrue from my installation, and yes, I've done multiple runs before and after, using GPS, etc. At best, there may have been a 1 to 2 mph decrease in stall speed. That's positive, but not worth the bother, in my book.

The Sportsman, on the other hand, does present a significantly lower stall speed, in my experience. It is more expensive, but I think the additional expense may be warranted by the better performance.

Wing covers: I use mesh wing covers, and I agree that the VG's aren't a total disaster when using wing covers. They are sort of a pain in the neck, though. Not bad ugly, but a significant increase in hassle. Understand that using wing covers itself is a hassle, so you're making the hassle worse, which isn't fun.

The worse problem I've seen is potential for pilot damage while fueling the plane. In icy, wet conditions, I've slipped a couple of times (okay, so I'm a klutz), and ripped a pretty nasty little gouge in my forearm with a VG. Frankly, it doesn't stretch my imagination to envision being out in the boonies somewhere, and precipitating a major bleed after a slip. That may seem unlikely, but.

A lot of folks also sit on the wing to fuel from cans (a practice I don't condone in any case). I wouldn't advise that with VG's, unless you are already contemplating hemorrhoid surgery.

As noted, I've got VG's, but I wouldn't do it again on a Cessna wing. On a Cub, yes, on a Scout, yes. On a Cessna, no. The minor benefits (and there are some) aren't worth the hassles, and there are clearly (to me) better STOL kits available for the Cessna wing.

Mike