Flying to a Ski Resort

[GAHorn]

Joe, I'll try again when I get 3 weeks off in Feb, this morn I have a nice fire burning and the wonderful thing is I didn't need to cut 10 cords of wood this winter.

I also have several questions this am: If new subjects are needed, feel free to transfer:

1.. This week I'm planning on buying some Victor, 1 1/4", Red, Fiberglass Tape, and seal the exhaust leaks under those clamps. I get 6 -10 ppm CO when the cabin air is open. However, the biggest leak looks to be from one of the exhaust gaskets itself at the cylinder. I looked through the Search, but didn't find any mention on gaskets. Instead of the tin gasket, is there anything better?
My mechanic has a thicker gasket that worked on another plane. It is copper looking with white asbestos sandwiched in between. Oreo cookie style.
When opening the Cabin Heat the CO rockets, so I've got to get it welded again while working on this. Dakota and I flew home in our sleeping bags. I am so glad I invested in a CO monitor.

2.. George, how do I figure 65% of power? I was flying at almost 2000 ft and not sure how much to lean the engine. Any tutoring in this area would be appreciated.

3.. Someone has put the bug in my wife's ear that we need a Piper 6, with the 260 hp engine. The specific one is $67K. Remember, I've only flown 1 plane & don't really consider myself a pilot. Should I try a Piper 6 on? Theory: The entire family can climb in + cousins + luggage and fly over the VFR. But I do want to retire someday too!

1) I just submitted an article to Velvet for publication on exhaust leaks and it'll be out sometime in the future. I'll consider publishing it here as well after I visit with Velvet.
The best gaskets for the exhaust riser to cylinder flange are the spiral-wound types. The official PN is: RA-627429 (RapCo brand) available from Spruce 877-477-7823. The Superior PN is SA 627429. Don't be surprised to find it necessary to grind a little excess flange material off the gaskets to slip them on without interference from the adjacent intake elbow. (Avoid the "oreo" types and the flat copper types because they don't stand up.) If you replace one, consider replacing them all on the same side of the engine because their additional thickness may make it difficult to re-fit the muffler to all the risers simultaneously. (A thicker gasket flange will drop the other end of that riser enough to make a difference.)
If you wait too long the cylinder flange will erode to the point it will never seal without cyl. removal and welding/re-machining.
) Use new exhaust nuts (Spruce PN 22022) when removing/installing the exhaust risers. (Just for convenience, here's the PN's for the clamp hardware also: (AN363C-1032 nuts, AN960C10 washers and AN3C-4A bolts)
If your risers are so worn their flanges are bowed, you should consider replacing them with new ones from Knisely Exhaust, Loomis, California (800-522-6990 or 916-652-5891) who makes them with nice thick flanges.
The risers are Pn’s 0550157-7 for the short straight ones (4 req’d each engine) and 0550157-8 for the longer curved ones (2 req’d each engine).

2) Power setting charts are found in the Owner's Manual. 65% pwr at 2000 ft is about 2450 RPM. At any power setting lean in accordance with the following procedure (no egt req'd): Set cruise power (2450 RPM recommended) and after conditions stabilize slowly lean until max rpm is found. Continue slowly pulling mixture control until first indication of rpm loss occurs. Enrichen (push mixture control back in) to max rpm position. That's it!
I personally leave the mixture in this position until I shut down at the chocks, unless I select a new (higher) power setting or different altitude for cruise or decide to abort a landing and go around. I also lean the mixutre control to about the half-way position to max rpm during climbs, starting just after departing the traffic pattern. Above 5K MSL I lean more aggressively during climb. (because no power setting I can achieve with my cruise prop above 5K' will exceed 65%, i.e., 65% @ 5K is 2550 RPM and I can't get that except in level flight or descent at that altitude. You cannot hurt this engine by leaning at pwr settings below 65% no matter how aggressively you lean.)
How does the above leaning procedure work? The rpm will continue to increase with leaning until the leanest cylinder begins to lose efficiency due to a too-lean condition, at which point the rpm will show the first sign of decreasing below the maximum just-achieved. Enrichening back to max rpm will put that cylinder back at max efficiency and therefore max rpm. All the other cylinders will be running richer than that leanest cylinder. Since leaning aggressively at/below 65% is not harmful to the cylinder, it is unnecessary to have any additional instrumentation than the tachometer. (And tach accuracy is unimportant for leaning purposes.)


3-Piper 6's are not the worst airplanes in the world, but they are far from the best in their price range. The 260 hp version is underpowered. And hot in the summer because of the greenhouse effect of that cabin sitting on top of that leaking wing. And the parts-supply-house is the junk yard. Piper doesn't make any parts for that airplane anymore.
Unlike Cessna 206's,...which will haul anything you can put in 'em, no model of which is underpowered, and which will jump off of 800 feet at sea level and 1800 feet at Telluride, Colorado. I know. I've done it. In a normally aspirated, 285 h.p. 1964 Cessna 206 I once owned and that I regret having ever sold. (And the cabin is shaded in the summer by that high wing which will give you a better view of the landscape, and the main landing gear doesn't have any leaky oleos.) It ran 144 kts burning 12 gph average, same as a 182, but hauled twice-the-load. Cessna still makes them and will sell you any part you need (although you might not like the price, at least you won't have to rely on the junk-yards and worn-out parts from wrecked airplanes.) And they fly just like a 170 with better ground-handling and higher cross-wind capability. I recommend non-aspirated versions unless you like to live on oxygen.

[flyguy]

GAY HORN, MOST NIE TOOK ME TREE ER TWO ARS TU REED WHACHA JES ROTE! SPEKT THE HOLE THANG YU SENT TU VELVET WUD TAKE A CUP'L MORE.

AN SUM O THEM CESSNA 207'S ER 6'S ER 5'S - ER SUMPINS, GOT A DOAR THET'CHA KIN PUT IN A CASKET. GOOD FER CAMPIN IN PLACES WHAR THEY DOANT A'LOW CAMPIN! PUT ALL U YER VITTLES IN ONE END AND WEN YU GIT REDDY TU SLEEP TAKE OUT THU VITTLES AN JES CRAWL IN THU CASKET!

[GAHorn]

Yes, but when camping in a 206, be sure to either have a Carbon Monoxide detector or leave the cabin vents open to let out the campfire smoke.

[AR Dave]

George,

I know you answer question's over and over and I'm so grateful that you are willing to do that. Not only do you answer our questions, you give us details in the repairing, the part #'s to order & where, cautions, & any other knowledge you can think of on the subject. Of course, this gives flyguy the opportunity to give his support, WITCH TAKES ME TREE ER TWO ARS TU REED WON SINTINS! When a more experienced member questions you, a thought provoking discussion takes place that we benifit that much more from. Thanks again for laying it out there.
And also to everyone else that's always ready and willing to roast you.

PS. Typical conversation with my mechanic - "Now that ain't what George says" or "I'd better check that out with the 170 club".

[N1478D]

George,

I know you answer question's over and over and I'm so grateful that you are willing to do that. Not only do you answer our questions, you give us details in the repairing, the part #'s to order & where, cautions, & any other knowledge you can think of on the subject. Of course, this gives flyguy the opportunity to give his support, WITCH TAKES ME TREE ER TWO ARS TU REED WON SINTINS! When a more experienced member questions you, a thought provoking discussion takes place that we benifit that much more from. Thanks again for laying it out there.
And also to everyone else that's always ready and willing to roast you.

PS. Typical conversation with my mechanic - "Now that ain't what George says" or "I'd better check that out with the 170 club".

Ditto with me too Dave! What a great choice of words you chose.

That's a GREAT idea, some of us could start giving George a hard time every once in a while. I might try that sometime.

Congratulations George on winning BEST ORIGINAL 170B at the convention, that's a really nice story about your plane. Just got the 170 News. Reading about the convention is tempting me to think more about going to this years. There are interesting stories, great pictures - a really good one of Frank and Becky, and Flyguy is strumming his guitar and singing.

[GAHorn]

That was not singing. That was lip sync-ing. Deana and Marie was singing. (He does, however, ...strum,...of sorts.)


AR Dave,...that's a hoot! (and Thanks. I think.)
I had a call recently from one of our members, considering buying a 170. He was telling the seller that he wanted to do an Annual inspection for his pre-buy. The seller apparently didn't want him to and complained, "You been listening to George too much."

[N1478D]

2) Power setting charts are found in the Owner's Manual. 65% pwr at 2000 ft is about 2450 RPM. At any power setting lean in accordance with the following procedure (no egt req'd): Set cruise power (2450 RPM recommended) and after conditions stabilize slowly lean until max rpm is found. Continue slowly pulling mixture control until first indication of rpm loss occurs. Enrichen (push mixture control back in) to max rpm position. That's it!
I personally leave the mixture in this position until I shut down at the chocks, unless I select a new (higher) power setting or different altitude for cruise or decide to abort a landing and go around. I also lean the mixutre control to about the half-way position to max rpm during climbs, starting just after departing the traffic pattern. Above 5K MSL I lean more aggressively during climb. (because no power setting I can achieve with my cruise prop above 5K' will exceed 65%, i.e., 65% @ 5K is 2550 RPM and I can't get that except in level flight or descent at that altitude. You cannot hurt this engine by leaning at pwr settings below 65% no matter how aggressively you lean.)
How does the above leaning procedure work? The rpm will continue to increase with leaning until the leanest cylinder begins to lose efficiency due to a too-lean condition, at which point the rpm will show the first sign of decreasing below the maximum just-achieved. Enrichening back to max rpm will put that cylinder back at max efficiency and therefore max rpm. All the other cylinders will be running richer than that leanest cylinder. Since leaning aggressively at/below 65% is not harmful to the cylinder, it is unnecessary to have any additional instrumentation than the tachometer. (And tach accuracy is unimportant for leaning purposes.)

George, do you consider your leaning technique aggressive?

My instructor taught the same technique as yours with a difference. At the point that you stop, his method was to add just a little bit more mixture in. His feelings were that aggresive leaning contributes to valve sticking and a hotter running engine in the summertime.

[GAHorn]

Joe, the method I described is exactly the method recommended by Continental and Cessna. (See the Owner's Manual.) I've used it for 35+ years with satisfaction in carbureted fixed-pitch prop'd engines.
Aggressively leaned engines do not cause stuck valves. Engines run too rich on leaded fuels cause stuck valves.

[N1478D]

George, I wasn't dissputing your success or accuracy. Was trying to figure out the subjective term "aggressive leaning". I could assume from your response that you would term anything more lean than what you do as aggressive, and vice versa for the opposite direction.

[DensityDog]

You guys outta keep a whole tailwheel and tire, including the bearings and axle, in your plane, all pumped up and ready to go. Better than having to dis-assemble, re-assemble and pump while sitting on the ramp!

Max

[GAHorn]

George, I wasn't dissputing your success or accuracy. Was trying to figure out the subjective term "aggressive leaning". I could assume from your response that you would term anything more lean than what you do as aggressive, and vice versa for the opposite direction.

No misunderstanding felt, Joe. The quote of mine that you used/referred to ask the above question was: George-"I also lean the mixutre control to about the half-way position to max rpm during climbs, starting just after departing the traffic pattern. Above 5K MSL I lean more aggressively during climb."
In that context, "more aggressively" means leaner than the 1/2 mixture-position I use for climbs below 5K.
Once maximum RPM is reached with a fixed-pitch prop on a carbureted engine (FP-C) ,...then any mixture richer or leaner than that position is less "aggressive." (Aggressive, to me, implys greatest effect or temperature. Therefore if max rpm (or EGT, if you have the gauge) is reached in a FP-C by leaning....then the mixture is optimum. The only way to be more aggressive than any given mixture is to readjust mixture toward higher EGT or higher RPM. That is impossible if you've already leaned to max rpm (in a FP-C situation) so there's no way to be more "aggressive." (In a FP-C situation, max rpm and max egt coincide.)
No, I do not consider the technique I use to be "aggressive" because 1) it's the technique actually recommended by the mfr. and 2) I never cruise at power setting greater than 65%, the power setting at which the mfr states "aggressive" leaning cannot be injurious. (This is because I either cruise at altitudes where wide-open-throttle (WOT) is 65% or less [happens to be at 5K in my airplane/prop combination] or because below WOT altitude, I reduce throttle to achieve 65% or less.

[AR Dave]

Vmoura wrote: I am planning on a flight to a ski resort(Ruidoso-NM).
This will be the first time I adventure flying to the mountains and temperatures below freezing. I have 170 hrs TT almost all in flat south Texas and will be flying VFR only.
Vmoura, so how did the trip to New Mexico turn out?

[vmoura]

Everything went fine. We were in Ruidoso for a day and then went to Albuquerque for New Year's eve. Back to Ruidoso three days later.

High altitude flying is quite a chalange. We took off with 17-20 knot wing from the west (upslope) and density altitude at 7800'. I wouldn't do this next time. In the summer things should be far more tricky specialy with westerly wind.

Rgds,

Victor