The International Cessna 170 Association

c170b53 wrote:I’ve been working in this biz for awhile. As far as I can tell it’s always been a cat and mouse game between the rule makers and the players when it comes to an airplane.
Ryan I hope you’re not offended by my musings. I guess I should tread carefully here, I hope I’m not offending others.
I deal with professional pilots everyday and as you would expect, most are human, but sometimes there’s variables. I was called out to a 777 dx this week, seems the RP had done a walkabout and had relayed some concerns to the captain about fluid below the engines. I walked into the cockpit and explained that a puddle is something you have to walk around, a leak is something we all have to do, and a drip or two is something some of us have to deal with after a leak. And the good news, neither engine has a fluid discharge falling into one of those categories. The F/O then pointed out that the most important thing for the RP to inspect were the engine drain masts and if he found them missing, he should get in touch with the previous crew and commend them on their flying technique. Awkwardly the RP shows me a picture he took of the fluid which was just ice on the lower wing surface , melting. I left the cockpit, couldn’t help but think, yes that’s a new pilot looking ahead at a rising hill, the Captain maybe contiplating the road ending and a F/O possibly forgetting the road he’s taken.
I think every pilot I’ve ever met wants to do a good job.
This is simply a terrible event needing some sleuthing to prevent further loss and suffering.

Definitely not offended, Jim. Just trying to guilt trip anyone listening to letting me add another 170 to the logbooks.

Here’s a quick story from the line, roughly ties in with the topic and some may find it interesting. A little background; I’m currently a 787 Captain with United, type’d in most of the Boeings, and I’ve been at this for about 32 years so I’ve seen my share of goofy stuff. And yes, retirement is just around the corner.
Some years back, sitting at the gate in a 757 (Denver, I think), the First Officer came up from her walk around and mentioned she had noticed a couple of screws missing from what sounded to me like, based on her description, some sort of small fairing, and wanted to know if she should write it up. Being an old maintenance guy, I tried to explain that a lot of those covers are secured by specialty fasteners and not necessarily by just some generic screw that would normally be readily accessible to the mechanics (especially at a maintenance base). It had probably been flying around like that for awhile. If, I told her, that was the case and the particular screws we needed were not in stock, we could easily be looking at a three or four hour delay, inconveniencing not just the passengers on this flight, but also on the subsequent legs we were scheduled to fly the rest of the workday. I gave her the choice, said it was her call, and told her to do whatever she felt was right. Well, you guessed it, she made the logbook entry and three hours later we were still sitting there, eventually running several hours behind schedule the rest of the day.
I’m certainly not advocating flying an unairworthy airplane - ESPECIALLY a large heavy jet - but there are times when a little “inside knowledge” can work in one’s favor, and possibly overlooking a minor discrepancy may ultimately end up as a small, inconsequential concession, whereas going strictly by the book might just cause more problems than it solves.
I’m definitely old-school, and my observations about the newest generation of professional pilots, sadly, seem to confirm the exact same observations made by George and described so eloquently in his writings. Maybe not total gloom-and-doom yet, but it does seem the old stick-and-rudder skills we were all once so proud of might just be going by the wayside.

Many years ago we had small turbo props flying between large cities in our state. The new co-pilot had written up in in the log book” large puddle of blue liquid found under aircraft near horizontal stab tastes bitter , is it oil??. “ the blue liquid was Rackzan a blue coloring and anti bacterial liquid added to the “honey pots “ sewerage pots. The toilet guys must have had a spill. I wrote up in the log book for a sign off “ tasting spilt sewage on tarmac not in aircraft preflight check list “ that log book entry was photo copied many times and pinned to many notice boards in the network. That pilot gained the nick name for many years as Rackzan.

x

"I have fully embraced modern automation and wouldn't go back to airliners that require "hand flying skills" if they gave me that choice. I tell the guys I work with, "if you want to hand fly, buy an airplane".

I assume you don't fly for Alaska Airlines. If a Captain ever said that to me, it would be an instant call to "Pro Standards". Automation is great and there is a time and need for it, but so is hand flying. That attitude wouldn't fly where I work.

Not a personal attack, simply my opinion and observations.

Jughead

x

KG

Yes automation has made thing safer. But there is a cost to all things. As an industry leading UPRT Instructor I have witnessed that the majority of US pilots, military, civilian, GA, 121.... have some serious hand flying issues when things start to go wrong. As soon as the airplane and the automation starts to do something unexpected, I’m in favor of shuttting it off. Get the airplane stable and then start resetting automation if it is appropriate.

KG,
Very well put ,and totally agree with you. The newer GA aircraft that have some types of auto pilots have a “panic” button fitted. If you get yourself in a unusual attitude just hit the button and the aircraft is brought to straight and level.
Today’s pilots must be trained to today’s technology and that must include no systems functioning. ALL my navigation is done with GPS these days all fuel calculations is done on my aircraft fuel computer. However old habits die hard I have a WAC chart with track drawn on it and every 30 mins position is confirmed with fuel used written on the map. 10 years ago this would have been frowned upon and labeled reckless.

I’m not a professional pilot, I’m the guy who comes in the cockpit and asks what the problem is. I wash windows, pour oil, dig in seats for cell phones and clear toilets. I do resets, apply Mel’s and change parts (only when I’m forced to )
I work mostly on 787’s now and really like the plane. I’m up to speed on it ( I think ) but it’s been a four year journey to get really comfortable. I’ve learned the airplane right along with Boeing learning the plane. They try to make them safe.
39 years of doing this on just about every type of big tin out there and I’m going to say the pilots are always different. Good, better, and best.
The plane (Max) has a problem that likely an old school guy could have handled but planes have to be engineered in a way today to handle pilots who have not acquired the years of making small mistakes. Normally that’s how most of us really get schooled.

It is simply an idiom

"Take your eye off the ball." - a failure could result.

Has a modern expectation of advanced technology caused Commerce to take it's eye off the ball?

MCAS.

x

Well said KG. Next time I get a Nashville layover, or you get a Seattle layover, we need to reach out to each other and go flying. Jughead

The best pilot I'll ever be was when I hand flew Cessna 401s (not 402s, those were newer ) with no autopilot.

Jobs like that are now gone, and today's entry level pilots go from the right seat of a 172 to the right seat of a jet- nothing in between. I suspect two years later most wouldn't have the desire or self confidence to fly a VFR cross country.

20 years ago we had this video as part of Initial/ Recurrent Training. I thought it was valid then, and has some validity now. Unless of course you fly an Airbus. Airbi pilots should never turn off autopilot j/k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

counsellj wrote:Well said KG. Next time I get a Nashville layover, or you get a Seattle layover, we need to reach out to each other and go flying. Jughead

Best suggestion I've heard yet.....

KG, ... I am not making an attack on your opinion at all... but this might be a good time to refer everyone to go back and find that YouTube which American Airlines once produced “Children of the Magenta” ... (also found at vimeo but using my new iPad I havn’t yet figured out how to post a link because I don’t understand iPad automations!!! Grrr. ).

I believe that comes very close to arguing against too much reliance upon automation, and I feel it certainly detracts from any argument that “automation” is the solution to accidents.

I think I understand your reference that automation has CONTRIBUTED to overall safety... but disagree with the premise that automation is the REASON accidents have decreased in recent years.
The reason accidents have decreased is STANDARDIZATION.... because increased automation REQUIRES increased stadardization . Over-reliance on automation leads to tragedy. (Thinking of American at Cali). Also, your comment regarding autothrottles instantly brought to memory the airliner which rolled completely upside down because the pilot depended on autothrottles and , without keeping a hand on the throttles during climb out, one throttle rolled back which allowed the opposite thrust to roll the airplane. That accident was CAUSED by automation and the crew’s reliance upon it instead of using manual flying skills.