Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

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TravisL
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Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:50 pm

Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by TravisL »

After actively searching the first half of the year, I finally settled on a 170A in June. It has been a CRAZY summer with deaths in the family, lots of travel, work, and etc so I have not been able to fly as much as I had hoped. However, things seem to be settling down (knock on wood) and I've been able to get in a few flights the last couple of weeks.

I found the plane on Barnstormers about 20 minutes after it was posted, saw it in Mississippi the next day, made a deal to purchase it with a new annual inspection, and then picked it up a couple of weeks later. It was insane how fast everything moved after so many months of searching, going to see planes, and always finding surprises at some point in the process. The only big issue found during annual was that one cylinder had compressions in the 60s and another was really low. The really low cylinder ended up having a bad valve and was pulled for an overhaul. I had the fun of breaking that in and on the way home from Mississippi, I struggled to keep oil temps under 225 as it was running hot from the break in I assume. Now that I've put quite a few hours on it, I've noticed on the last several flights that the oil temps have settled in between 210-220 even on very long climbs in 100 degree Texas heat.

The plane also has a climb prop, so my climb rate is insane (compared to my old 140A I replaced). Solo, I'm getting 1000-1200 fpm (to be fair, I'm only 140 lbs and that's if I have eaten well that day) and with my family loaded up a couple of weeks ago and 3/4 fuel, I was hitting 800-1000. My air speed averages around 105 and I can hit 110 if I can do a good job of holding everything level and coordinated.

This is the straightest flying airplane I have ever owned. Outside of the really bumpy days, once trimmed I can take hands / feet off and it will fly straight and true as long as my passengers don't mess with me and lean forward / back / left / right as they were doing on the flight back from Mississippi!

Anyway, so far, I'm very happy with my decision to buy this plane. Now, on to the questions!

When I had the very high oil temps, I was worried that I was forever going to have issues keeping temps low. I came on here, started reading and discovered that I was not alone and that it was a common issue. I also learned about the increased max oil temp with 100W Aeroshell oil (that's what they had put in after the cylinder overhaul) so my concerns went down. Once that magic day happened where the one cylinder stopped running hotter than the rest (it has a flight computer) and the oil temps stabilized lower, I felt way better. I just added my first 1/2 qt of oil the other night after ~10-12 hrs of flying since getting the plane, so it doesn't seem to use very much oil either...at least once it got down to around the 6 qt mark. Before that, it was doing a nice job of coating the belly...

Now, I'm about to do my first oil change to get ready for flying to Blakesburg in a few weeks and I'm not sure what oil I should use. Since I'm still not 100% sure the oil temps will stay low, I'm leaning toward going with a straight weight oil again, especially for that long of a trip. Any real difference between Phillips and AeroShell other than personal preference and price? Any reason to use one over the other? I can buy the Aeroshell locally by the case. I'm not sure about the other.

I have a cabinet full of Phillips 20W50 that I used for my 140A and really liked that oil for my Luscombe before the 140 and then for the 140, but I'm hesitant to use it if my oil temp issue may come up again.

I appreciate any advice / tips.

Here are a couple of photos. I hope to get some better ones soon.
IMG_0568 (2).jpg
IMG_0455 (1).jpg
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c170b53
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by c170b53 »

Excellent, sweet looking, great story, glad to hear a success story.
The A is faster than a B. As for numbers, I know my climb rate with a C/S prop is great but I can’t say now how great because my VSI lies and needs an overhaul. I also have a heated pitot with the Horton stall kit, so I believe my airspeed lies as well.
I use Phillips 20w50 XC and have no complaints. I’ve re-re cylinders and stayed with Phillips multi and after 50 hours the plugs went from initial black to grey. A few locals state there’s less internal corrosion with Aeroshell vs Phillips.
Thanks again for sharing your story, hope to hear how she goes, again.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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ghostflyer
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by ghostflyer »

I am totally with Jim on his selection of oil . Just do not over fill the crankcase ,you are wasting money and making the aircraft oily. Sounds like you have got a good bird if she flies straight. plus Phillips have a added additive that stops [slows] internal corrosion .
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pdb
Posts: 466
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by pdb »

One thing to bear in mind is that many 170 owners believe that if you put in 8 qts, you are going to blow out 1 qt very quickly. When my 170 owning mechanic changes my oil on Annual after draining ing the sump and cleaning the screen, he puts 7 qts in. I follow that practice when I change the oil and use Phillips 20W50.

With respect to the Aeroshell vs Phillips and multi-grade vs single wgt issues, you will encounter a variety of opinions. Keep some perspective in mind. If you are flying the plane a lot, it probably makes very little difference which you use provided you change the oil and clean the screen at 25 hour intervals.

If you don’t fly very much, (my guess under 100 hrs/yr), your biggest enemy will likely be internal rust, not direct engine wear from operation. In that case, single grade is likely a better bet as it adheres to the cylinder walls longer than multigrade whose viscosity at lower temps will allow it to slide off the cylinder walls quicker, exposing interior surfaces more quickly to moisture.

If you are flying in lower temperature areas in northern areas, you may well benefit from the multigrade oil, especially when it’s cold but using multigrade is never a substitute for proper and through preheating, regardless of your location.
Pete Brown
Anchorage, Alaska
N4563C 1953 170B
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2366/2527 ... 4e43_b.jpg
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

I see you have an A model with a serial number lower that 19200. It has what some think is a sea plane lip on the bottom of the cowl. It is not, that is the stock lip. After 19200 the lip was reduced to 3/4" and I fell in an effort to raise what is often low temps to a better higher range and at the same time reduce drag.

I mention the lip because the larger lip, to a point, draws more cooling air over the engine to cool it. It is somewhat unusual to find a early A with cooling issues. So some investigation is warranted if your keep having temps about 225 deg.

To start, besides the cylinder break in, with the climb prop, your probably running the engine at a bit higher RPM than most others would be at cruise. This will not hurt the engine, but it does create more heat.

You should make sure the internal baffle system is in decent shape and doing its job. Make sure all the engine baffles ie the little plates between the cylinders and around the bottom of the cylinders, are in place as they should be. Often these become "lost". Also check your exhausts over all but specially at the cylinder flange. A slight leak is a jet of hot air so hot it will destroy the cylinder and while doing it the jet of hot air heats the oil returning to the case through the push rod tubes. Oil passing through these tubes is a large part of oil cooling. Last your plane should have blast tubes which direct cooling air to the accessory case in the area of the oil temperature bulb. If these tubes have gotten moved your gauge will/could be reading higher than intended.

Your gauge. How accurate is it. You should test it at oil change when the bulb is out by submersing it in a jar of heat oil of a known temperature. Heat the oil to 225 as measured with a candy thermometer for example.

Last, the C-145/0-300 operators manual and engine TCDS has been changed to raise the max temp to 240° when running a single viscosity 50 weight oil. Oil marketed as 100 something is actually 50 weight, doesn't matter mineral or ashless dispersant. There is nothing wrong with Phillips 20/50. In fact it is my preferred oil and what I run. But being the Phillips is a multi weight oil you can't take advantage of the higher oil temp limit.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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TravisL
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by TravisL »

Thank you all for the feedback.

For now, I think I'll stick with the single weight oil to take advantage of the 15 degrees higher temp until I'm comfortable that the high temp issue is resolved. After the last couple flights not having issues despite the 100 degree weather in Texas, I am leaning toward it being break in related. Since it's generally not that cold around here even in winter, I don't think it will be an issue even then. Once I am confident it's resolved, I'll likely switch back to the Phillips 20W50. For now, I was also told to avoid the oil with additives for the first few oil changes while that cylinder continues to break in completely.

It appears my normal temps now are in the 210ish range and I keep my cruise RPM around 2400-2450.

PDB / Ghostflyer - Agreed, fill to capacity leads to a large amount of oil all over everything and that has held true on my Luscombe, 140 and now the 170. It seems happy at 6 qts indicated on the dipstick.

Bruce, thank you for the info regarding the lip. We had noticed that when I bought it and assumed it was an early thing, but wasn't 100% sure why. From what we can see, the baffling seems to be in really good shape and the seals around the edges are nice and tight. I will double check the plates between the cylinders as well. It does only have one blast tube which is aimed toward the area around the spin on oil filter / accessory case.

I will also test the gauge once the weather cools down just a little so I can stand to be in the hangar for longer periods of time. I had also read that a turkey temp probe can be used as well down the dipstick tube to test the oil temp immediately after flying?

For the exhaust leak checks, are there signs I would see from a visual inspection without completely removing the cowling?
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Ahh, I was wondering if you had a filter added. Than can/will effect the oil temp reading as the relationship of the blast tube to the original placement of the temp gauge bulb in the accessory case has been changed. The tube should be adjusted to cool the bulb.

Measuring the oil any place but the original location is like comparing apples to oranges. Cessna wanted 225 degrees as measured at the factory location with the blast tubes aimed correctly in order to meet the Continentals original temp limits. So 225 degrees at bulb with a factory setup is an apple. Measuring the temperature at the dip stick would give you a orange cause we don't know what the temperature is suppose to be at the dip stick. When comparing an apple and an orange you can say you have basically round fruit of similar size and that is about it. Likewise the temp of the oil at the dip stick will tell you, you have oil hotter than ambient temps, and maybe if the oil is say 400 degrees you might rightly conclude your oil is to hot. But thats as close as your going to come.

Testing the gauge to get an idea of it's accuracy, as they are notoriously not is what you need to do. Then you need to try to replicate the factory method of installation as close as you can, and then the factory numbers are valid to use.

Exhaust leaks show often as light brown and gray dust like matter. You will see it, and to a degree it is unavoidable about the joints of the 170 muffler system. However any such deposit about the exhaust pipe flange at the cylinder should be investigated quickly.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

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hilltop170
Posts: 3481
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm

Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by hilltop170 »

TravisL-
Congratulations on finding your 170 and becoming a TIC170A member!

What part of Texas are you located? From your username I'm guessing around Austin?

The Texas TIC170A members have a monthly fly-in/lunch somewhere in Texas sponsored by member Ken Peck. He has a mailing list you should be on. If you aren't getting emails from Ken, shoot him a PM and ask him to include you. We'll look forward to meeting/seeing you at some of these.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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TravisL
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by TravisL »

Thanks Bruce, I'll give that a try soon.

Yes Richard, I live in Round Rock and have my 170 based at Taylor. I have known Ken for years from when I bought my 140A and was looking for an instructor. He wasn't instructing at the time, but we kept in touch over the years and occasionally run into each other at Smithville or Fly-Ins.

I attended the 170 meeting when it was in Taylor before I had my 170 and was planning to attend the one tomorrow, but this week has been brutal and I don't think I will be able to roll myself out of bed early enough to go to the airport, preflight, and etc to still get to Tyler by the new revised earlier time. I've been traveling so much lately anyway and will be going to Blakesburg in 2 weeks, so a weekend of downtime is much needed. I won't make it to next month's meeting at Reklaw either even though I really, really want to. That one is scheduled for the same weekend as a leader training camp for my son's Boy Scout Troop and I have to attend that.
hilltop170
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by hilltop170 »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:".....................Your gauge. How accurate is it. You should test it at oil change when the bulb is out by submersing it in a jar of heat oil of a known temperature. Heat the oil to 225 as measured with a candy thermometer for example...............

I prefer to test oil temp probes with boiling water. Hot oil scares the heck out of me. Fire potential and burn potential on skin are both much worse with oil than hot water.

Plus, if you are anywhere close to sea level, boiling water will always be close to 212°F so you do not need any kind of temp gauge to compare your probe to.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
hilltop170
Posts: 3481
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm

Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by hilltop170 »

Looking forward to meeting you this fall when I get back to Texas.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: Finally found a 170, now I have questions!

Post by GAHorn »

TravisL, you might be advised that Jim (C170B53) is in British Columbia and doesn't face the ambient temperatures you do down here in Texas. I doubt he suffers very often from high oil temps.

I'd also suggest that by now, your new cylinder is well-broken-in and that I recommend you go ahead and stop using non-AD oils. Shell W100 is good. I've used it here in Texas for decades with excellent results. I've recently added Phillips 100AD to my preferred-list because it's essentially the same as W100 and is less expensive to source. I've recently discovered aviationoiloutlet.com who will pay shipping for 2 cases or more. It arrived in 3 days via UPS. (Don't confuse the Phillips nomenclature with Shells. Phillips 100AD is ashless dispersant like Shell W100. But Phillips 100AW includes the Lycoming-required additive that Continentals don't need and may contribute to the problems mentioned below, although it's only anecdotal.)

I'd avoid those oils will extra additives, the so-called "Plus" oils because they've been reported (Aviation Consumer) to harm some types of starter-drives due to additional slippage, and they are also suspected of causing leaching of some bearing/bushing materials (so-called "yellow" metals like copper, brass, etc.)

Oil opinions are like politics: Everyone has one and they easily start arguments. I hope mine hasn't provoked anyone unnecessarily. :D

Another source of excessive oil temps are the exhaust-riser to muffler clamps which can leak and blow hot exhaust gases onto the pushrod tubes. It's always a good idea to limit that sort of thing. Hope this helps. Give me a call sometime, and make CERTAIN to attend Richard and Ina's Xmas party!
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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