What is the planes value?

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CrossFive
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What is the planes value?

Post by CrossFive »

I am new to this forum, and aviation for that mater, but want to gather as much information as possible about 170s. More specifically, I am trying to determine the current value of the following plane: 1954 170b with aprox 2000 TT and 480 SMOH. The plane is all original, with the exception of new paint approx 15 yrs ago (matches original paint scheme). There is no damage history and plane has been hangared since the 1960s. It was last flown approximately 12 yrs ago but owner has started and ran the engine 2-3 times a year since parked. All ADs where addressed up until last parked and plane is out of annual. How do I go about determinng the planes value? What resources are available to help answer this question? Thank you for your help.
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KG
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by KG »

I have no idea of the value of that airplane but it is my opinion that starting it 2-3 times a year has potentially ruined the engine. I'm sure others will comment as well but moisture is a byproduct of combustion and, unless it gets hot enough to evaporate most of that moisture out, it corrodes the internals of the engine. To heat the engine adequately to evaporate the moisture, it probably has to be flown. I have a friend with a C182 who did the same thing .... airplane sat for ten years with him running it occasionally and his engine now needs overhaul. Your seller's engine would have been better served by preservative oil.

Having bought an airplane that had a corroded cam revealed after 100 hours of me flying it (probably caused by sitting too much), I can tell you that an engine overhaul is very expensive.

I don't want to spoil a potential sale for the airplane owner, but I would insist on pulling a cylinder or two and inspecting the cam. Just my opinion, earned by writing big checks.

Sellers don't want to do this. Understandable because it is possible to damage the engine in the process of pulling the cylinder. But competent mechanics replace cylinders all the time without problems. Just make sure you use a competent mechanic.
Last edited by KG on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

As stated already 12 years of just running 2-3 times a year, is likely harder on the engine. It is said it takes engine oil over 180° to start to boil out the water. The owner may have sat in the plane long enough to do this the first or second time (this is even in doubt) but 2-3 times over 12 years, no way. Engine could be fine, it could be toast shortly. It's a $20K (or more) gamble.

Second you say it is all original. If it truly is all original, it has AN Gyros. Most don't find 70 year old AN gyros desirable. It has Goodyear brakes which no one wants. So you really need a few more details. New brakes are $2000 not installed. New modern working pictorial gyros are a few hundred each not installed. How's the ELT? What avionics does it have? You could have several thousand into these areas.

What are your desires? Are you a mechanic? Are you looking for something you can overhaul/upgrade/fix up?

This may be a perfectly good plane. Very hard to say. But I'd bet most here will think it's value closer to $20k than $30k. If someone is able to buy it around $20k they might be getting a really good deal if the engine proves itself in the next 300 hours. But its a big gamble. And until the engine comes a part for overhaul even after 300 hrs the inactivity time will have a negative effect on it's resale value to most.
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c170b53
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by c170b53 »

Very common question for a familiar situation and answered I think in a measured manner. At first the interest in an airplane is high but once reality sets in, the numbers roll up. The plane sits because the seller sees it as it was, the buyer sees it as it is. Tough for a new entrant to learn the lesson but haven't we all been there at one time and still have the left over parts or is that just me! :D
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
CrossFive
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by CrossFive »

I appreciate each of your responses. I am asking the question because I don't want to stub my toe on this. As one may expect, what the owners number is and where I think it should be is a wide spread.

To answer a few of the previous questions: no I am not a mechanic, yes it truly is all original (except paint and addressing ADs), it needs a new ELT, there are no avionics, I am interested in keeping the panel fairly simple (yet functional), I am not opposed to doing the overhaul (if the price is reflective), and lastly, I am not independently wealthy :)

I am looking for a taildragger plane to get my young family and I up in the air. Like most activities in life, one vehicle, boat, plane, etc. will not meet all our needs and desires. The more research I do I keep gravitating toward a 170. Fairly efficient, nice useful load and off-airport capability.

This plane in particular really is a low hour, barn find beauty. And the owners are great people and a pleasure to visit about the plane with. I am just trying to navigate through this process, gain as much information as possible, and see if we can find a number we could both live with.

I understand this is a 170 forum, but I am open to any other thoughts or suggestions you guys may have as far as a plane. I do appreciate your responses. It is apparent you bring with them a wealth of knowledge (even if learned the hard way) :)
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c170b53
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by c170b53 »

It's possibly a 66 year old plane. I've seen some wings that are perfect inside of that vintage but that's a rare thing. If it's been inside and protected that's a good start. If it's covered in dust in a barn like structure, maybe you're looking into a east side mouse hotel. If indeed you look into every nook and cranny and it's all good, you'll still likely want to go through it from front to back, ie new cables, seals, brake rebuilds, hoses and possibly instruments. Tailwheel rebuild, possibly main tailspring, new rubber, basic avionics. Then the engine, exhaust likely rusted out, carb rebuild, new mags or rebuilt and I'm sure more.
Labour will be a substancial cost while parts might not be that bad.
The return; a beautiful aircraft, show quality and highly desirable. But then would you want to start flying into the backcountry with it?
Really a tough call all around, one only you can make to your satisfaction.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
hilltop170
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by hilltop170 »

A start on your decision process that is cheap and won't be objected to by the seller would be to borescope the cylinders thru the top spark plug holes. If they are rusted you know a teardown is in the near future, shiny cylinder walls would be much better news. Exhaust valves can also be inspected to look for burned valves.

A good borescope can be purchased for about the same amount an A&P would charge to do the inspection and can be used on many other situations. Mike Busch who is a respected aviation maintenance authority has recommended the ViVidia Ablescope VA-400 with the rigid extension at about $200. I got one and have used it on several engines so far. It will bluetooth to your iPhone or iPad with excellent stills and videos.

Available on Amazon; https://www.amazon.com/Vividia-Ablescop ... ope+va-400

Mike Busch article; https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -borescope

Good luck on your search and stay rational on your decisions. Once you get into restoring an old airplane that has not flown for a long time you will have to continually decide how much farther you want to go. Having gone thru this process more than once, I know. And as Jim stated above, there will no doubt be many items needing attention that might quickly exceed the purchase price and/or value of the plane if you pay someone else to do the work.

The worst part of getting an old plane back in the air is you cannot fly it while you are working on it.
Last edited by hilltop170 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
flyboy122
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by flyboy122 »

Is this your first plane? If so, do NOT buy a project! Go find one that's in annual, flying regularly, and generally ready to go. Yeah, you might pay more, or get higher times for the same money, or miss a "deal". It will be worth it in the long run. Owning an airplane is an educational experience as much as learning to fly one is. You no more want to learn to own on a project than you would want to learn to fly in a Pitts.

I've passed up a lot of great deals over the years (took a couple too). At the time you think you'll never one as good as that again, but you do.

DEM
CrossFive
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by CrossFive »

Yes, this would be the first plane purchase. And the information on the bore scoping and link to find it is great. The knowledge of the group and your input is greatly appreciated. We will see where this goes.
CrossFive
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by CrossFive »

HILLTOP...I just read the AOPA article you linked on borescoping. That is a great article and amazing how affordable the technology can be. I encourage others to read it as well. Thanks!
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johneeb
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by johneeb »

hilltop170 wrote:A start on your decision process that is cheap and won't be objected to by the seller would be to borescope the cylinders thru the top spark plug holes. If they are rusted you know a teardown is in the near future, shiny cylinder walls would be much better news. Exhaust valves can also be inspected to look for burned valves.

A good borescope can be purchased for about the same amount an A&P would charge to do the inspection and can be used on many other situations. Mike Busch who is a respected aviation maintenance authority has recommended the ViVidia Ablescope VA-400 with the rigid extension at about $200. I got one and have used it on several engines so far. It will bluetooth to your iPhone or iPad with excellent stills and videos.

Available on Amazon; https://www.amazon.com/Vividia-Ablescop ... ope+va-400

Mike Busch article; https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -borescope

Good luck on your search and stay rational on your decisions. Once you get into restoring an old airplane that has not flown for a long time you will have to continually decide how much farther you want to go. Having gone thru this process more than once, I know. And as Jim stated above, there will no doubt be many items needing attention that might quickly exceed the purchase price and/or value of the plane if you pay someone else to do the work.
Richard I have been using a VA-400 for about 1 1/2 years, works great with my old lap-top computer. Initially I tried to use it with an android tablet that I already had and found that particular Android tablet did not have enough brain power. I looked into using it with my I-pad and found I would have to additionally buy a VA-B2 WiFi AirBox.
http://www.oasisscientific.com/store/p3 ... ablet.html
John E. Barrett
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hilltop170
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by hilltop170 »

That is true John, I forgot about the $80 converter box for bluetooth usage. It does work very well on the iPad and iPhone.

At one time I thought I had a burned valve and found out the valve was good with the borescope. It also showed the valve was being held open by a chunk of carbon or lead which was easily removed by tapping the rocker arm with a plastic dead-blow hammer. Problem solved.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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170C
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by 170C »

I've used a VA-100 borescope on a couple of occasions and recommend it as well. Last yr when one cyl only had 20/80 compression, used the scope and dropped the exhaust valve, resurfaced it and got the compression back up to 72/80. Now I inspect each valve and piston in all 6 cylinders at annual. Good tool. I also think they make a flexible deal instead of the rigid one. I want to use the scope to look at my sump forward of the carburetor boss to see the condition of that area. Thinking I can go up through the sump drain in the forward area.
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johneeb
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by johneeb »

170C wrote:I've used a VA-100 borescope on a couple of occasions and recommend it as well. Last yr when one cyl only had 20/80 compression, used the scope and dropped the exhaust valve, resurfaced it and got the compression back up to 72/80. Now I inspect each valve and piston in all 6 cylinders at annual. Good tool. I also think they make a flexible deal instead of the rigid one. I want to use the scope to look at my sump forward of the carburetor boss to see the condition of that area. Thinking I can go up through the sump drain in the forward area.
Frank when you do look in your sump please post some pictures, should be interesting.
Johneb
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170C
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Re: What is the planes value?

Post by 170C »

I'll try to remember John. I have to remove my airbox for repairs in the next month or so and plan to investigate the sump at that time.
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