180HP 170B vs C180

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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby canav8 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:16 am

gahorn wrote:
bagarre wrote:From what I understand, Air Repair does not manufacture new L-19s but rather does an incredibly extensive repair of an existing data plate.
Thats how the warbird folks do it. They have a drawer full of legal data plates and 'repair' one when someone comes along with enough money.


Although that is done in the business... it is technically illegal if original/previous maintenance records of that datatag is destroyed or "lost'.


It is called the "Golden Rivet Rule" in Aircraft Maintenance. An aircraft can be considered repaired as long as it has one original rivet. True!
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby gahorn » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:45 pm

bagarre wrote:
gahorn wrote:
bagarre wrote:From what I understand, Air Repair does not manufacture new L-19s but rather does an incredibly extensive repair of an existing data plate.
Thats how the warbird folks do it. They have a drawer full of legal data plates and 'repair' one when someone comes along with enough money.


Although that is done in the business... it is technically illegal if original/previous maintenance records of that datatag is destroyed or "lost'.


How is it illegal?


Here's how: Aircraft maintenance records are required to be kept by law. If the airplane's wreckage (or datatag) is used to "reconstruct" the airplane... then the airplane's existing maintenance records are still a required matter, to be included in the record. It's a simple deception to deliberately destroy those records and represent the airplane as anything other than a repair/reconstruction. The record should indicate which items are damaged, removed, and/or replaced... and what methods/materials were used....and signed off by an appropriately-rated repairman or CRS as approved for return-to-service ...even if everything has been rebuilt but the datatag.
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:39 am

Lets see what this log entry would look like:

    Secured data plate to data plate jig. Removed 4 rivets securing data plate to fuselage. Positioned replacement complete serviceable fuselage and associated accessories, to data plate fixture. Replaced 4 rivets securing data plate to fuselage. Removed data plate jig. All work accomplished in accordance with.....

Doesn't seem to hard. :?
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby bagarre » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:38 am

Who is talking about deliberately destroying logs or deception? No one.

Maintenance records are NOT required to be kept BY LAW for all time. You need to keep them until the work is repeated, superseded or one year after the work is completed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.417

Da Regs wrote:91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include -

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by § 43.9(d) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under § 43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.



It is COMPLETELY legal to ground up rebuild and restore an aircraft and not keep the old logs because the restoration work SUPERSEDED the prior work/repairs.

That does not mean you get to zero time the airframe tho. Total time in service is total time for the data plate.
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby n2582d » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:31 am

FAR 45.13 (e) says "No person may install an identification plate removed in accordance with paragraph (d)(2) of this section on any aircraft, ... other than the one from which it was removed." AC 45-2E expands on this in paragraph 6.8.2 which says, "You are prohibited from using an identification plate from a scrapped or destroyed aircraft or aircraft engine."

But there is also paragraph 6.4 which fits together with FAR 21.183(d) (which I quoted on the last page.)
6.4 Identification Plate Requirements for Aircraft Built from Spare or Surplus Parts.
Information to be displayed as identification is described in paragraph 6.1. In addition, the following guidelines should be followed:
6.4.1 You should use the builder’s name as your name (the person who assembled the aircraft), not the name of the manufacturer who builds the same model of aircraft.
6.4.2 You may assign any serial number if it is clear that the manufacturer who builds the same model of aircraft did not assign an identical number. You should add a letter prefix or suffix, such as your name or initials, to the serial number to provide positive identification.

This is found at the bottom of the TCDS for Regal Air's L-19: "Cessna Model 305A, S/N 2001 and up, Ector Aircraft Company of Odessa, Texas; S/N AH1001, E.P. Akin and V.R. Hanson of Cupertino, California; and S/N Esther-1, Gary L. Claasson of Ozark, Alabama, assembled from surplus and spare parts are eligible for airworthiness certification under provisions of FAR 21.183(d)."
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby gfeher » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:59 am

I agree that if all you have is just the data plate, you can't "rebuild" the aircraft from just that. So if you are building/assembling an aircraft from surplus or spare parts without any original structure associated with a data plate, the provisions Gary just cited would apply and you would need to create your own data plate. But if you have a data plate associated with some structure, you can rebuild under that data plate even if the rest of the aircraft is made/assembled from spare or surplus parts (and of course it is rebuilt to the original design, specifications, etc.) This applies even if the data plate is not on the structure you are keeping, as long as it's documented somewhere that the data plate was on the same aircraft as the atructure you are keeping. (See the AC Gary just cited allowing removal and re-attachment of a data plate for maintenance.) If you are legitimately restoring that aircraft, you shouldn't have a problem. But if you are trying to game the system by buying up data plates and going from there, that's a different story.
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby dunlaps3 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 pm

bagarre wrote:Why settle for a 180hp 170 when you can have a 210hp 170?


Why settle for 210hp when you can have 220 HP 170B ? :roll:
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Re: 180HP 170B vs C180

Postby c170b53 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:16 pm

Franklin?
There was one for sale in Alberta (previously operated on Vancouver Island) with floats and skis for 90K C$.. I think .
It was listed for sometime last two years, not sure where it went.
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