Big brother ADSB

A place to relax and discuss flying topics.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

User avatar
ghostflyer
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:06 am

Big brother ADSB

Post by ghostflyer »

When ADS-B was introduced I saw many Aviation benefits but I was very naive of what other sinister uses it can be used for.
One of my colleagues has received a ticket [fine]and a letter in the mail from our local city council, fining him for flying too low over populated area and also excessive noise . So the question was how did they know all this information . Well the council has purchased voice recording machine and ADSB flight tracking software . So another question has been raised WHEN did local,government have statutory authority issue fines for airman ship when it is a CASA area of authority[ federal Goverment] . The by-laws officer was quizzed over this breach of law. The officer stated the aircraft must be at 1000ft over a populated area and the airport now has a evening curfew. “ the approach is over a populated area” .it was explained . Nobody knew about the evening curfew , nothing in our CASA airport diagrams . It was passed by council and is only printed in the By-laws documented held only in council admin . The fine for excessive noise was withdrawn due to lack of evidence. We are now governed by public servants who have no idea or proper training in aviation matters.
A public meeting is being held next month to sort this matter out .as the council wants to intoduce landing fees also .
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
Posts: 10313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

I'm sure the same thing will be tried in the USA as local governments have already done similar things without ADS-B. Locals are usually unsuccessful because they do not have authority and can not take the action they think they can. Of course there is a lot of upheaval and only the lawyers win. This type of thing is one of the few reasons I am a member of a few organizations like the AOPA who's lawyers would probably be putting the local authority on notice if they were over stepping their bounds.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by GAHorn »

I don't know about things "down under"...and I don't play a lawyer on the "telly-telly".,.... but in the U.S. only the Federal Gov't, via FAA has jurisdiction over aviation/FARs and that includes the creation, scope, implementation and enforcement.

Of course, one may be "sued" for anything the courts will allow... but most courts have plenty to do and will rule such matters are not within their jurisdiction.

Richard brings an excellent point, however.... ADS-B may provide evidence supportive of crimes/violations other than FARs. It won't be difficult to argue you voted in-person for Putin if you were flying to/from Moscow that day.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
lowNslow
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by lowNslow »

This is why if you need to get ADS_B, buy one with "Anonymous" mode. When in squawking 1200 activating anonymous mode conceals your N number.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by GAHorn »

lowNslow wrote:This is why if you need to get ADS_B, buy one with "Anonymous" mode. When in squawking 1200 activating anonymous mode conceals your N number.
So-called "anonymous mode".... is not anonymous to ATC....only to flight-following software such as Flight-Aware. Anonymous mode is also limited to the UAT978 units...so if your ADS-B solution involved a new transponder... you likely will be on 1098, not UAT.

The current implementation of ADS-B will not allow you to go flying around without revealing information about you which you may consider "private". "Privacy" is one of the loud arguments against ADS-B... and I too am concerned.

Like your automobile... you had to register that and license that also and if it's on the streets your "privacy" has been somewhat invaded. The legal argument about this is that driving and flying is a "privilege... not a right". The difference is that your automobile travels are unlikely to be widely-published on the Internet.
Unless the Avionic Organizations Promotion Assoc'n changes their stance... don't hold your breath that things will change.

At present, my plans are to utilize something like the GDL82 or similar, which are invisible to the pilot, as it sits between the transponder and it's antenna transmitting the ADS-B Out data. It may be difficult or impossible for the pilot of my airplane to know/observe when it's circuit breaker has failed. 8) (I have no idea if it still passes the txdr thru to the ant if it does fail.) It will still be difficult to mask any aircraft movements from a diligent investigator, however. If the airplane was last observed in Cody... and next appears in Spicewood... I kinda think they might figure out how it got there. :roll:

It may be like my machine-gun ownership. I resisted owning one for many years because I was unwilling to give away my fingerprints and ID to a Fed. Agency who might harass me over it. That was 30 years ago and they've never so much as called me. (I've also rarely shot it because, like my airplane, ... it's too much trouble to clean and too expensive to feed and too useless for any real purpose.) :?
I doubt FAA/ATC/FBI has any interest in my airplane travels beyond keeping me from getting sucked into the intakes of an airliner, and I don't plan to use it for illegal purposes, so this is most likely all very silly and useless and needlessly expensive since I don't often fly to large airports anyway. I wonder.... will my insurance rates be reduced because the possibility of theft might be more traceable...??
(yeah..r i g h t ...) :?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
lowNslow
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by lowNslow »

gahorn wrote: So-called "anonymous mode".... is not anonymous to ATC....only to flight-following software such as Flight-Aware. Anonymous mode is also limited to the UAT978 units...so if your ADS-B solution involved a new transponder... you likely will be on 1098, not UAT.

The current implementation of ADS-B will not allow you to go flying around without revealing information about you which you may consider "private". "Privacy" is one of the loud arguments against ADS-B... and I too am concerned.
Your partially correct, yes anonymous mode is only available at this time with UAT, and no, ATC does not see your N number as the ADS-B sends a randomized address.
I am currently installing the GDL82 unit which is a very easy install using your existing transponder which also allows you to turn off mode C. I really don't care if there watching where I'm going, quite frankly I don't think they would find it very interesting. The one thing you do lose with anonymous mode are "enhanced ADS-B search and rescue capabilities".
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by GAHorn »

lowNslow wrote:
gahorn wrote: So-called "anonymous mode".... is not anonymous to ATC....only to flight-following software such as Flight-Aware. Anonymous mode is also limited to the UAT978 units...so if your ADS-B solution involved a new transponder... you likely will be on 1098, not UAT.

The current implementation of ADS-B will not allow you to go flying around without revealing information about you which you may consider "private". "Privacy" is one of the loud arguments against ADS-B... and I too am concerned.
Your partially correct, yes anonymous mode is only available at this time with UAT, and no, ATC does not see your N number as the ADS-B sends a randomized address.
I am currently installing the GDL82 unit which is a very easy install using your existing transponder which also allows you to turn off mode C. I really don't care if there watching where I'm going, quite frankly I don't think they would find it very interesting. The one thing you do lose with anonymous mode are "enhanced ADS-B search and rescue capabilities".
"The aircraft’s assigned ICAO address, sometimes called its 24-bit address, is unique and must be broadcast by the ADS-B transmitter."
Although it may not be displayed to public-viewers of flight-following software...it is still identifyable to FAA/ATC.

Why is this important? “Should multiple aircraft broadcast the same ICAO address while transiting the same ADS-B Only Service Volume the ADS-B network may be unable to track the targets correctly. If radar reinforcement is available, tracking will continue. If radar is unavailable, the controller may lose target tracking entirely on one, or both targets,”

(This info came from the Avioinic Organizations Promotion Assoc'n : https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... st-clarity )

So, if FAA/ATC/FBI wanted to know more about you... it's not "anonymous" to them.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by GAHorn »

Aryana wrote:We have bird people and the EPA that are going to have a field day with this data out on the coast.

I gotta find a ratty Cub or Champ before 2020.
I know a cash-in-hand buyer for your 170B. :P
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
lowNslow
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by lowNslow »

This from the FAA Q&A ADS_B page.

Additionally, GA operators that employ UAT transceivers have the option in VFR operations, when they are squawking 1200 and flying below FL180, to select "anonymous mode", which enables the transceiver to broadcast a randomized flight ID and pseudo-ICAO address.

Mode S transponders also send ICAO addresses and can't be turned off. I don't know if this is true if you are running it thru a ADS unit like the GDL82.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by GAHorn »

Aryana wrote:[..We have had unscrupulous environmental groups flat out lie and fabricate videos showing airplanes scaring marine life away as justification for banning flights on certain parts of our coast.

It was later uncovered that they used footage of marine animals getting spooked from dynamite blasting for a tunnel being constructed and pawned that off as being the result of airplanes flying too low overhead.

ADSB is going to give them data that they will be salivating over to try and squash GA flights.
I flew the length of CA from Lompoc/Vandenburg to MRY to SFO much of it just off-shore at 100' (except for the Nat'l Sanctuary) and most of the otters, seals, and other wildlife calmly watched us watch them. MRY Bay was so foggy most animals didn't notice us at all as we scudded across the water. Maybe it was due to the low viz...but I doubt fish notice at all unless a shadow is cast.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
170C
Posts: 3182
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 11:59 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by 170C »

What am I missing here? If I turn off my xponder, atc can still spot me on radar in some/most situations. If I have an ADS-B out unit and turn it off/pull that circuit breaker George mentions, it would seem the only thing atc could see would be a radar return as in my first statement/question. Not that any of us would do so, but wouldn't that prevent any data other than a radar signature?
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
User avatar
ghostflyer
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:06 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by ghostflyer »

Local goverment is on a money grab , I pay 1800 dollars a year as a airport levy and $8000 lease payments to local goverment plus $6000 local tax . That just for 2 hangars . The 1800 dollars was introduced instead of landing fees. This only applied to hangar owners , but anybody could land here for free. Not fair I say . Now with ADSB , they want to intro landing fees. These are one of the highest on the Eastern Australian coast. The revolt is coming . The peasants are gathering their pitch folks .
User avatar
170C
Posts: 3182
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 11:59 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by 170C »

As well they should!
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
flyboy122
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:30 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by flyboy122 »

Drones have brought this issue to the forefront lately in the US. A lot of municipalities trying to pass drone ordinances were unpleasantly surprised to find out that they didn't own the air above them, and that the FAA was not shy about letting them know who does. They can legislate you once you touch the ground, but again a lot of them were unpleasantly surprised when they realized that all those millions they took from the feds for their local airport came with strings. "Sure you can ban jets after 9pm, just give us back that $15m we put into your airport over the last few years...."

DEM
User avatar
170C
Posts: 3182
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 11:59 am

Re: Big brother ADSB

Post by 170C »

Too bad Santa Monica is getting squeezed out. Hope the city has to pay all those funds back.
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
Post Reply