I'm considering making an offer on a '52 B model that appears to be in great shape but could use a panel upgrade. My offer would have to take into account the cost of the upgrade and I figured somebody here has done this before. Assuming all the instruments work, I don't plan to replace much, but maybe just change the placement of some of them. I have also seen leather covered panels as well as wood grain panels and like the look of both, but I haven't seen where to buy either. Any advice on what's involved with such an upgrade as well as approximate costs would be appreciated.
Hope everybody had a Merry Christmas!
Thanks, Joe
Instrument Panel Upgrade
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Instrument Panel Upgrade
Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Joe,
If this '52 is stock it has what is commonly referred to as the piano key style instrument panel.
As you can see by the picture above most of the instruments are mounted in a panel. That panel floats inside the hole in the surrounding instrument panel and it is covered by a bezel. Changing some of the instruments position from one hole to another in the stock panels is no big deal and others like the tach are harder to do because of the rigid cable and or room behind the panel that they take.
It is much more difficult, which you should read as takes a lot more money, to create and replace the whole instrument panel with some other design in order say to set up a standard T pattern. In fact I'd say the honest answer is what you would pay to have this done you would never recover your money and in fact removing one of the unique things people like about the older 170s. Yes it has been done, but not by many.
As for covering the existing panel with leather or having a wood bezel made to replace the metal bezel, these things are usually a labor of love by the owner and difficult to put a price on.
If this '52 is stock it has what is commonly referred to as the piano key style instrument panel.
It is much more difficult, which you should read as takes a lot more money, to create and replace the whole instrument panel with some other design in order say to set up a standard T pattern. In fact I'd say the honest answer is what you would pay to have this done you would never recover your money and in fact removing one of the unique things people like about the older 170s. Yes it has been done, but not by many.
As for covering the existing panel with leather or having a wood bezel made to replace the metal bezel, these things are usually a labor of love by the owner and difficult to put a price on.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Joe,
If you hire someone else to do a major instrument panel re-design you can spend anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000 on it.
The reason for the divergency of cost-estimation is purely due to the unknown factors of how much alteration you actually dream about versus the method of performing the alteration.
Examples:
1- A buddy of mine had a 1962 Cessna 175 with a typical panel of that era and he wanted a more modern "Basic - "T" type of panel. We pulled it up into my yard and disassembled the panel and removed all the radios. We found a sheet-metal aircraft mechanic who cut out a blank panel and sold it to us. We used a drill-press and a fly-cutter in my garage to cut all new instrument holes and relocated all the instruments and switches into the arrangement he wanted and painted it flat black. We installed Grimes post-lighting and screened new labels and placards onto the new panel. No major change of radios (other than tossing out an old Gen-Nav txdr...replaced with a Cessna 300 txdr and replacing a Narco Escort anchor with a Garmin 55 docked into a special bracket) since (like a 170) that would have required a major alteration of the flight-control/yoke system. The work was signed off by a supervising A&P as a minor alteration. Total cost (since all the labor was his/mine) was about $400 due to lighting and materials costs. It took us 3 months of occasional weekends. My buddy had paid $12,500 for that airplane, and sold it after 7 years to an aircraft engineer in Seattle for $24,000, having flown it for almost 800 hours. That panel was beautiful, even if I do say so myself. (The airplane was subsequently repainted in original colors/scheme for $3,200 (nice job in "Jet-Glo" by El Cheapo Paint Co, Big Spring, TX ...now out of business) and a $1400 interior was installed.) It was a good looking airplane. So with a pruchase price of $12.5 and about $5K - $6K of improvements it sold for about $6K profit after several years of flying pleasure.)
2- A different friend purchased an aftermarket panel from a company that purported to sell a panel that was a "simple" replacement. He paid them $2400 for their product. It was not as simple as they'd represented. First, it did not actually fit and required considerable re-work. Second, it did not accomodate his flight-control-yoke and required complete removal and replacement of the yokes and control "Y" behind the panel. Third, the promised approval paper-work did not actually apply to his aircraft and he had to hire a DER ($1100) to create engineering drawings to submit to FAA for a field approval. He then had to hire an A&P/IA ($450) to submit the rest of the paperwork and correct related issues before FAA would approve the Form 337 and work. This was in addition to the labor of the A&P who'd actually made the installation with the cooperation of the outside labor already mentioned. His airplane was grounded for almost a year and his finished product had cost him approx. $6,500. When he sold the airplane the buyer's mechanic was unhappy about the quality of completion of the alteration and argued price as a direct result of it. The airplane sold about $2K less than the asking price. I'd say that alteration cost him about $8,500 for the 3 years he'd owned that airplane of which he'd only flown it about two years and less than 100 hours.
Are you sure you don't like the '52 instrument panel? You will probably spend most of your flying time looking out the windows.
If you hire someone else to do a major instrument panel re-design you can spend anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000 on it.
The reason for the divergency of cost-estimation is purely due to the unknown factors of how much alteration you actually dream about versus the method of performing the alteration.
Examples:
1- A buddy of mine had a 1962 Cessna 175 with a typical panel of that era and he wanted a more modern "Basic - "T" type of panel. We pulled it up into my yard and disassembled the panel and removed all the radios. We found a sheet-metal aircraft mechanic who cut out a blank panel and sold it to us. We used a drill-press and a fly-cutter in my garage to cut all new instrument holes and relocated all the instruments and switches into the arrangement he wanted and painted it flat black. We installed Grimes post-lighting and screened new labels and placards onto the new panel. No major change of radios (other than tossing out an old Gen-Nav txdr...replaced with a Cessna 300 txdr and replacing a Narco Escort anchor with a Garmin 55 docked into a special bracket) since (like a 170) that would have required a major alteration of the flight-control/yoke system. The work was signed off by a supervising A&P as a minor alteration. Total cost (since all the labor was his/mine) was about $400 due to lighting and materials costs. It took us 3 months of occasional weekends. My buddy had paid $12,500 for that airplane, and sold it after 7 years to an aircraft engineer in Seattle for $24,000, having flown it for almost 800 hours. That panel was beautiful, even if I do say so myself. (The airplane was subsequently repainted in original colors/scheme for $3,200 (nice job in "Jet-Glo" by El Cheapo Paint Co, Big Spring, TX ...now out of business) and a $1400 interior was installed.) It was a good looking airplane. So with a pruchase price of $12.5 and about $5K - $6K of improvements it sold for about $6K profit after several years of flying pleasure.)
2- A different friend purchased an aftermarket panel from a company that purported to sell a panel that was a "simple" replacement. He paid them $2400 for their product. It was not as simple as they'd represented. First, it did not actually fit and required considerable re-work. Second, it did not accomodate his flight-control-yoke and required complete removal and replacement of the yokes and control "Y" behind the panel. Third, the promised approval paper-work did not actually apply to his aircraft and he had to hire a DER ($1100) to create engineering drawings to submit to FAA for a field approval. He then had to hire an A&P/IA ($450) to submit the rest of the paperwork and correct related issues before FAA would approve the Form 337 and work. This was in addition to the labor of the A&P who'd actually made the installation with the cooperation of the outside labor already mentioned. His airplane was grounded for almost a year and his finished product had cost him approx. $6,500. When he sold the airplane the buyer's mechanic was unhappy about the quality of completion of the alteration and argued price as a direct result of it. The airplane sold about $2K less than the asking price. I'd say that alteration cost him about $8,500 for the 3 years he'd owned that airplane of which he'd only flown it about two years and less than 100 hours.
Are you sure you don't like the '52 instrument panel? You will probably spend most of your flying time looking out the windows.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Thanks for the replies George and Bruce. It's not that I don't like the appearance of the '52 panel so much as that I've seen, in my search for the"perfect" airplane, some beautiful examples of reworked panels. I was just wondering what it would take to achieve the same look. It seems that, as in most things in life, there is no simple answer, nor did I expect one! I'm thinking that if I really want a "pretty" redone panel, I'd better buy one already installed or be ready to shell out some possibly serious bucks! I'm going to try and attach a few pictures I took of the panel that I'm considering. If anyone has any suggestions as to what could be done to improve it, I'm all ears. Thanks.
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Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
I sure as hell would hate to try to fly a tight insrrument approach with a hashed up panel like that. Looks like every time they thought of something new they just cut a new hole wherever they thought there was almost room.
BL
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
That's what I'm thinking, too! I'm sure it works for the present owner, but it's a bit jumbled for me. Maybe I've been spoiled by those darned You-ro-peans and their nicely laid out EFIS panels! You quickly lose your "scan" and acquire a "stare"!
Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Move the Airspeed indicator over to the T&B location. Move the Art-Horizon to the Airspeed location. Install the DG in the Altimeter location. Put the Altimeter where the Compass presently is, and either put the T&B into the old Art-Hoiz. spot....or put it down where the VOR is and move the VOR to the old Art-Horiz location. That would likely cost less than a few dollars and go a long ways to making the airplane more familiar. (The new panel would be, left to right, = Airspeed, Horizon, Altimeter, VOR .... and just below the Altimeter would be the Compass and then the T&B.)
bluEldr....you've flown a lot of old stuff that had panels more complex and dis-contiguous than this one, with a lot less modern equipment and with a lot less help from ATC. Right?
bluEldr....you've flown a lot of old stuff that had panels more complex and dis-contiguous than this one, with a lot less modern equipment and with a lot less help from ATC. Right?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Good Morning Joe,
You can do some nice upgrades and keep the price down. I have been working on an updated panel for my 52B model and am just about ready to start the install with the annual next month. I don't have the ability to post pictures on the forum but if you send me a PM, I can get an e-mail address for you and send the pics - or I can e-mail them to one of the readers and they can post.
Here's what I did...
My original panel is the stock unit from the 52 airframe - 7 holes straight across all 3 - 1/8" holes.
Instruments left to right are - airspeed, art. horizon, altimeter, DG (the old sperry 400 lb. type), VSI, turn coordinator and then the tach.
I purchased (from one of our members in NJ) an 8 hole panel and overlay, with the middle two instruments stacked on top of each other, and the two outer most instruments 2 -1/4" holes. I used this as a pattern to make the new sub-panel from .090 aluminum plate and matched the overlay he had to the new holes. The panel was painted with an etching primer and a very durable semi-gloss black finish coating. The panel overlay will be flat black on the inside and gloss black on the exterior face.
The updated instruments are as follows, again left to right
Airspeed, art. horizon, Century NSD-360A HSI - it's a non-slaved, vacume driven (simpler less exspensive install in my plane with current radio's), then in the two center positions on top is the altimeter and bottom is the turn coordinator (very short in depth allowing good clearance for our T style yoke bars), next is the VSI, then a clock (Waltham Watch Co. unit from my uncles F6F Hellcat - story in another thread on these forums) and finally the tach.
The best part of the overlay is that all the openings will have trim rings, yes that means I have to make the one for the HSI by hand, but no worries its a few hours on the break and it will be fine (each one I make is better than the last - eventually it will be perfect ) Not sure if I will paint the trim rings gloss black like we currently have or a dark blue metalic that would match the rest of the cabin interior metal parts (door posts etc.).
For lighting I used the Nulites, and had to shave material off the two center units as they are very close, as well as the one for my VSI and clock. We screwed them all onto a piece of wood facing out as if you were looking from behind the panel into the cockpit and pre -wired them all together for a single 2 wire tail that drops down the co-pilots side. Then I used a green highlighter to change the color from clear to a soft green and it worked slick. These will prevent the glare on the windshield I now get with the stock lighting system even with the little green booties on the bulbs...
You can imagine flying IFR with this current panel...
NAV CDI is on the radio (KX-125), then up to the panel and the DG display is not vertical but horizontal so when you turn left for example - your viewing the compass headings turning to the right , then switch display on the radio to get VOR radial, back to up to the panel... It's just all over the place
So the new panel will really be neat.
Like I said - its pretty cool and I can show you the pictures. If you really want to look at a nice setup, search out Richard Pulleys panel on the forum - it's REALLLLLLY nice.
This is just one solution that I felt like doing no better or worse than others, but for me it was within my capabilities and budget. Oh yes... I found out that a buddy had the cut-outs for the holes AFTER the panel was drilled with lots of dremel hours and filing to the wee hours were spent finishing it off.
Good Luck,
Kyle T.
You can do some nice upgrades and keep the price down. I have been working on an updated panel for my 52B model and am just about ready to start the install with the annual next month. I don't have the ability to post pictures on the forum but if you send me a PM, I can get an e-mail address for you and send the pics - or I can e-mail them to one of the readers and they can post.
Here's what I did...
My original panel is the stock unit from the 52 airframe - 7 holes straight across all 3 - 1/8" holes.
Instruments left to right are - airspeed, art. horizon, altimeter, DG (the old sperry 400 lb. type), VSI, turn coordinator and then the tach.
I purchased (from one of our members in NJ) an 8 hole panel and overlay, with the middle two instruments stacked on top of each other, and the two outer most instruments 2 -1/4" holes. I used this as a pattern to make the new sub-panel from .090 aluminum plate and matched the overlay he had to the new holes. The panel was painted with an etching primer and a very durable semi-gloss black finish coating. The panel overlay will be flat black on the inside and gloss black on the exterior face.
The updated instruments are as follows, again left to right
Airspeed, art. horizon, Century NSD-360A HSI - it's a non-slaved, vacume driven (simpler less exspensive install in my plane with current radio's), then in the two center positions on top is the altimeter and bottom is the turn coordinator (very short in depth allowing good clearance for our T style yoke bars), next is the VSI, then a clock (Waltham Watch Co. unit from my uncles F6F Hellcat - story in another thread on these forums) and finally the tach.
The best part of the overlay is that all the openings will have trim rings, yes that means I have to make the one for the HSI by hand, but no worries its a few hours on the break and it will be fine (each one I make is better than the last - eventually it will be perfect
) Not sure if I will paint the trim rings gloss black like we currently have or a dark blue metalic that would match the rest of the cabin interior metal parts (door posts etc.).For lighting I used the Nulites, and had to shave material off the two center units as they are very close, as well as the one for my VSI and clock. We screwed them all onto a piece of wood facing out as if you were looking from behind the panel into the cockpit and pre -wired them all together for a single 2 wire tail that drops down the co-pilots side. Then I used a green highlighter to change the color from clear to a soft green and it worked slick. These will prevent the glare on the windshield I now get with the stock lighting system even with the little green booties on the bulbs...
You can imagine flying IFR with this current panel...
NAV CDI is on the radio (KX-125), then up to the panel and the DG display is not vertical but horizontal so when you turn left for example - your viewing the compass headings turning to the right , then switch display on the radio to get VOR radial, back to up to the panel... It's just all over the place
So the new panel will really be neat.Like I said - its pretty cool and I can show you the pictures. If you really want to look at a nice setup, search out Richard Pulleys panel on the forum - it's REALLLLLLY nice.
This is just one solution that I felt like doing no better or worse than others, but for me it was within my capabilities and budget. Oh yes... I found out that a buddy had the cut-outs for the holes AFTER the panel was drilled with lots of dremel hours and filing to the wee hours were spent finishing it off.
Good Luck,
Kyle T.
Kyle Takakjian
Truro, MA
52 C-170B, N8087A
Truro, MA
52 C-170B, N8087A
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Thanks again for all the advice, guys. Anybody who thinks this association isn't worth the dues just ain't thinkin' ! 
Kyle , I'm sending you a PM for those pics if you don't mind. Thanks, Joe.
Kyle , I'm sending you a PM for those pics if you don't mind. Thanks, Joe.Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754
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hilltop170
- Posts: 3481
- Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Joe-
Try to determine before you start how far you're going to go with the panel upgrade. It could easily look like this if you're not careful!
Click on pictures to enlarge.
Thankfully, like Kyle said, it did turn out nice.
Another word of caution; the lower, center hole in the top panel, where the turn coordinator is, has limited clearance behind the panel due to the control yoke T-column. Measure yours to be sure how much clearance is available.
I have over 150 hours actual instrument conditions with this panel configuration. Not the standard 6-pack but very useable.
Good luck and PM if there are any questions I can help you with.
p.s.- Yes, Blueldr, I know I was 60 ft low and to the left of course, but I was taking pictures and flying at the same time and was being vectored!
Try to determine before you start how far you're going to go with the panel upgrade. It could easily look like this if you're not careful!
Click on pictures to enlarge.
- Let's see, maybe we'll just swap two instruments...............
- Light IFR, T82 to GPM
I have over 150 hours actual instrument conditions with this panel configuration. Not the standard 6-pack but very useable.
Good luck and PM if there are any questions I can help you with.
p.s.- Yes, Blueldr, I know I was 60 ft low and to the left of course, but I was taking pictures and flying at the same time and was being vectored!
Last edited by hilltop170 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Beautiful result although that first picture scared me! Did you do the upgrade yourself or have it done? If you had it done, do you mind passing who did it and at what cost? Gorgeous work whoever did it!
Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
After first seeing Richard's panel, I fell in love with it as I am sure everyone else did. He (and I) have the same style panel as you do. It's a little less forgiving as far as options go for instrument locations than the later style panels, but you can work with it and still make it IFR capable if you wish. I noticed you don't have the lower panel covers which you may or may not want to make to "clean" it up a little. Richard doesn't have them and it looks fantastic. I just finished my panel and took lots of ideas from different planes and really wanted to keep it looking somewhat original yet have some more modern equipement. I did all the work myself and still wound up with well over $10K in parts. Of course I went with all new radios and all instruments are either new or overhauled/refaced. I also went with the nulites and love them.
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Richard Dach
49' A Model N9007A
SN 18762
49' A Model N9007A
SN 18762
Re: Instrument Panel Upgrade
Gorgeous panels! Thanks, guys. Hey LBpilot82, did you make the "lower panel covers" you mention or buy them? If bought, where did you get them? And WatkinsLV, did you fabricate your panel? Beautiful work!!!
Last edited by busav8or on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Former Caretaker of N4410B '55 170B
s/n: 26754
s/n: 26754