Do you have later model seats installed?

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

Moderators: gahorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

Do you have Pilot/Co-pilot seats from another aircraft installed?

Yes.
7
13%
Seats from Pre-1965 Cessna.
23
43%
Seats from 1965-1975 Cessna.
11
20%
Seats from 1975-1985 Cessna.
2
4%
Seats from 1985 or Later Cessna.
1
2%
Seats of unknown origin.
10
19%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby shawnadele » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:13 am

I'm not sure. My seats are square backed, have no adjustment other than forward, aft, and the backs do fold forward without detents. I have trouble getting new covers for them as I've been told they "aren't standard". They are in #20271, a 52 B model.
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby gahorn » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:40 am

If they have detents, they are not original. Likely from a 172/182/205 etc. A recent Airworthiness concern likely applies.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby Peter Makowski » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:27 pm

gahorn wrote:I am compiling an answer for the FAA regarding replacement seats.
If you have replaced your seats with those from another model cessna, please comment here. The report I make regarding this info will be only total numbers and seats involved,....no owner or aircraft identification will be made.


from Peter Makowski N3442D. I have a Cessna 172 fold-down rear seat 337'd to my 1955 C170B. Done in July 2003 via FSDO in Harrisburg PA. Nice features
and easy mod.

Similarly I installed two front seats with crankup retractible lifts from a C182 vintage 1977 or thereabouts. Done by same IA/A&P in Pennsylvania. Logbook entry
as Cessna 100 series MTC Manual says any seat except C150 can be used in Cessna100 series airplanes. All recovered and new interior in 2005 so they look good. My
airplane is much modified by previous owneres in last 35 years so originality is not the theme. Pete Makowski N3442D.
N3442D @ BDR
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby ck » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:05 am

yes from 65-75
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby shawnadele » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:10 pm

I am not at all sure where my seats oringinated. I am told they are not original. They have a square back, not tapered and not as tall as oringinal. The backs fold forward.
I do have pictures if you'd like them emailed.
Sorry I took so long to get back. I've been out of town.
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby gahorn » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:20 am

Well.... this "poll" isn't working as intended.

The FAA issued airworthiness alerts, and opened a public comment period on certain Cessna aircraft with articulating/reclining pilot seats. (They may collapse on takeoff leading to loss of control of the aircraft when the seat back fails.)

I have several times attempted to convince FAA that an AD note against later model Cessnas will not address installations of those seats in earlier aircraft. (And an AD note agains the earlier aircraft seats will not address the problem seats, nor do we want another AD note against our aircraft which will cost us time/money to comply needlessly.)

FAA responds that later Cessna seats are not fitted to earlier aircraft such as Cessna 170s. The low response to this question is not likely to help me convince them to re-write the airworthiness concerns/AD's to address them to the SEAT.... not just the original aircraft model in which those seats were first installed.

WARNING: If you have non-original seats in your aircraft, BEWARE that they may have dangerous design characteristics/features which may result in failure of their seat backs and their supporting, articulating features that may lead to aircraft control problems should they fail on takeoff/initial climb. (Set the pitch trim at "zero" for takeoff and LET GO of the yoke if your seat fails on takeoff/climb.)

And inspect your seats according to any airworthiness concerns or AD notes which may apply to the model aircraft from which they were originally installed. If you don't know.... FIND OUT.


Also, be aware that you should also include your original seats for corrosion/security, especially at the lower seat back hinge and structure to detect any weakness or signs of incipient failure. Some of these steeltube seats are getting pretty rusty beneath the upholstery and can fail without warning.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby blueldr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:17 am

A good many years ago, my right front seat back failed and my passenger went over backwards almost all the way. He was not a pilot and fortunately did not make a grab for the yoke. The steel tubing of the seat frame was rusted through from the inside. I can't immagine any kind of an inspection, other than possibly xray, that could have detected this incipient failure. I did make an inspection of the same area of the pilot seat by using heavy pressure on a awl to see if I could find any thin spots in the tubing. Nothing was detected.
BL
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby bagarre » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:28 am

Good comment!
I'm in the process of re-working a set of front seats and was thinking the same thing (internal rust).
checking the tubes with an awl or a peen hammer is a real good idea.
I'm also going to flood the tubes with WD-40 or something to give them a coating.
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby blueldr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:52 am

Actually, we were kind of lucky when that seat broke. My buddy,Don, had turned sort of sideways to the right and leaned back to see if another airplane was flying along with us. We were cruising at about 2500MSL, returning from a breakfast flight to willows,CA., when he went over backwards. Fortunately, he grabbed the assist strap on the right door post with his left hand, not the yoke.
BL
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby gahorn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:45 pm

A Service Alert was issued several years ago by Cessna regarding this very thing. Internal rust can weaken seats made of tubing. Testing the seat back is something I do every time I climb aboard. (I have to lean waaay-back hard to get my seat belt fastened.!) :lol: :oops: :lol:

(My original post in this topic mentioned this problem): "Also, be aware that you should also include your original seats for corrosion/security, especially at the lower seat back hinge and structure to detect any weakness or signs of incipient failure. Some of these steeltube seats are getting pretty rusty beneath the upholstery and can fail without warning."


As for pulling back on the yoke during "high speed" cruise..... Jamie was reading a book and came to the end of a chapter while we were in cruise. She absent-mindedly decided to readjust her seat forward, and pulled on the YOKE as a method of accomplishing the task. 8O
I don't know how many "G"s we pulled.... but if N146YS had been an "A" model.... it would definitely have "dihedral" afterwards. 8O
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby hilltop170 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:34 pm

Later model seats that still use the same seat track have rectangle aluminum tube construction.

After hurricane Katrina and Rita, there were quite a few seats available from flooded airplanes. I bought 4 pair of fully articulated C-182 front seats immediately after Katrina for $50 to $80 apiece. As expected, they were pretty nasty, upholstery wise, but after stripping the old covers off, the frames were in excellent shape. They were thoroughly flushed out with soap and water and the old finish was scrubbed off with MEK and a small brass wire brush. (DO NOT sandblast, beadblast, dry ice blast or any other kind of blast on the cast magnesium seat frames, THEY WILL DISAPPEAR.) The seat frames were then primed and re-coated with gray paint and looked like new. Some of the articulating mechanisms were temporarily bound up but all responded well to liberal soaking with CorrosionX and exercise.

There may be some available after Sandy if anyone was to check the salvage yards.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby Grasshopper.Kingdom » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:28 pm

Why not stay out of other people's business? Why feed the Feds? It just costs the taxpayers and us money
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:41 pm

Grasshopper.Kingdom wrote:Why not stay out of other people's business? Why feed the Feds? It just costs the taxpayers and us money


What are you talking about?
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby Grasshopper.Kingdom » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:24 pm

My seats are in plastic bags in my pigeon coop at the moment.
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Re: Do you have later model seats installed?

Postby gahorn » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:08 pm

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:
Grasshopper.Kingdom wrote:Why not stay out of other people's business? Why feed the Feds? It just costs the taxpayers and us money


What are you talking about?


I suspect he has recently-discovered this thread and is referring to my opening-post:
gahorn wrote:I am compiling an answer for the FAA regarding replacement seats.
If you have replaced your seats with those from another model cessna, please comment here. The report I make regarding this info will be only total numbers and seats involved,....no owner or aircraft identification will be made.


Here's the answer Mr. "Grasshopper Kindom" :

This subject IS EVERYONES BUSINESS, as you must know since by your response it's clear you realize it may affect YOU. The problem is that FAA has issued airworthiness concerns about certain airplane seats. They have issued AD notes regarding those seats which were originally installed in certain year model Cessnas. The point is that they identify the AD with the year model AIRPLANE...not the part number SEAT.... which could actually have been transferred to another model airplane and endanger that operator.
Now... since that defective seat MIGHT be in a 170... AND since NONE OF US want a "blanket AD note applied to all our 170's (which is the typical FAA method of addressing such situations).... I contacted FAA to point out the fault with their method of issuing the AD, specifically that their AD does not identify the defective part (the seat) but instead limits the directive to year-model of airplane. FAA's response was that seats are never installed in airplanes other than orginal, which we all know not to be true.
This thread/poll was intended to gather information to inform FAA that in actual fact, seats from one model airplane are actually installed in different models as a common practice... in the hope that FAA will recognize that their failure to identify seats by PART NUMBER may defeat the intent/purpose of an AD, and that simply applying the AD to all Cessnas is also improper and another form of needless government oversight.

This thread was also intended for yet another purpose: To bring to our Member's attention the need to know the pedigree of their seats.... AND...to show how simply because a product/part is approved for a different installation, that there are HOLES in the approval and notification processes regarding continued airworthiness.
I suspect there are many such situations where an otherwise airworthy part has been utilized in a different installation without subsequent concern about it's airworthiness.... as every year the AD list is examined and updated and the aircraft approved for return to service.... without owner OR inspector being aware that the title of newly-issued ADs may not bring to their attention the fact that an UN-airworthy part is existing in the airplane being returned to service.
Clearly, neither of the two want that situation to develop without their knowledge, and until FAA re-addresses how AD notes are identified then exactly that situation exists. (This is also an example of how IA's are tasked to determine airworthiness each year. Owners sometimes do not realize the behind-the-scenes work that is required of their inspectors (not to mention the associated liability) and/or understand why an IA who never-before has inspected a particular airplane quotes a high price to complete the job. It's because it's hard work and plenty of it, if he's to do a good job.)

Summary: This thread/poll is intended to prevent an unnecessary AD against your personal airplane.
Hope that helps you understand.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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