Equipment Lists

[voorheesh]

The TCDS requires an equipment list and my 170A does not have one. I had it weighed and empty CG calculated so I can make sure I am in limits. Question: Can an owner make up his own equipment list and be legal? I have some mods like Jasco altenator, Horton Stol kit, Garmin 150 GPS etc. Do these need to be on the list? How do you account for weight and arm? I have 337s for each mod but they do not give much w&b info. Would appreciate any advice. Also, where can you get the "flight manual" sheet that is also required?

[GAHorn]

The TCDS requires an equipment list and my 170A does not have one. I had it weighed and empty CG calculated so I can make sure I am in limits. Question: Can an owner make up his own equipment list and be legal?

Yes. In fact the owner is the one responsible for maintaining the equipment list.

I have some mods like Jasco altenator, Horton Stol kit, Garmin 150 GPS etc. Do these need to be on the list? How do you account for weight and arm? I have 337s for each mod but they do not give much w&b info. Would appreciate any advice.

The 337's should have provided the new wt/bal info, but it's a common failure of inspectors to do the math. The STC for your alternator and Stol mod should provide you with wt changes. The OEM equipment list should provide the arm of the removed equipment (as should have the 337 documenting the mod.) If you don't have an original equipment list, then you can obtain a copy of your airplane's original directly from Cessna. (Hint: The arm of the generator was "-6".)

Also, where can you get the "flight manual" sheet that is also required?

You can obtain an original Approved Flight Manual (a single sheet of paper that is required to be onboard) for $35 (last I checked) from Cessna. Or you can join TIC170A and, as a Member, get a copy for a couple of dollars from headquarters. (The quarterly magazine, the monthly Flypaper, the Directory, and all the other nice things that go along with membership will then be quite an inexpensive deal. No?)

[GAHorn]

Here's the data on my airplanes equipment list (sorry the format isn't as nice as the WORD Document it came from, but the info is there for you to view) The "Item No." is that referred to in the TCDS:
EQUIPMENT LIST

DATE 3-8-01 MODEL 170B

N NO. 146YS (STANDARD)

SERIAL NO.25713


ITEM NO DESCRIPTION WEIGHT ARM
1 (a) SPINNER 0550162 2 -39
1 (f) PROPELLER McCAULEY 1C172 30 -39
101 STARTER 16 -6
102 CARBURETOR AIR FILTER 1 -27
110 HANLON-WILSON EXHAUST STACK 15 -22
201 WHEELBRAKEASSEMBLY-CLEVELAND 15.5 +22
202 TIRES -6.00 X 6 18 +22
204 SCOTT TAILWHEEL & TIRE –3200 8 +249
210 WHEEL STREAMLINES 7.5 +21
301 GENERATOR-DELCOREMY 1101898 19 -6
302 BATTERY 22 -3
304 LANDING LIGHT GE4509 2 +32
402(f) STALL WARNING INDICATOR 1 +15
SENSITIVE ALTIMETER .5 +15
TURN & BANK 2 +15
RATE OF CLIMB 1 +15
CLOCK .5 +15
OUTSIDE AIR TEMP .5 +15
LOUDSPEAKER 3 +39
RADIO-NARCO COM 810 3.6 +15
RADIO-NARCO TRANSPONDER AT-150 2.3 +15
RADIO-BENDIX/KING KLN-88 6.2 +15
ENCODER-NARCO AR-850 .8 +15
ELT- ACK 3 +105
INTERCOM-PM1000II .7 +15
VHF ANTENNA .5 +70
LORAN ANTENNA KA 85 2 +36
BAS PULL HANDLE 1 +195
SKI AXLES 2 +22

[N2865C]

I have always wondered if the equipment list is required to be in the aircraft along with the WT. & BAL. or if is it is OK to keep it with the logs?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

All of what George says is true.

But since you had your aircraft weighed with all that equipment installed it wouldn't be necessary that you have the individual weight and arm for each thing. You still need a list that accurately describes how the aircraft was equipped when it was weighed. And you should at least figure the arm for those things like antennas that could be installed anywhere.

In your case voorheesh I recommend you do as I did. Your W&B is done. Compile a list of all the equipment both standard and optional. Then find the weight and arm for those things you know you have and you can find and put it on the list. The W&B should be annotated to say the aircraft was equipped as listed and the list attached. All the information you need will either be in the TCDS or the STC and or 337 for the mods. If not there yo may have to do some detective work. For example you can fine the weight of the Garmin 150 at the Garmin web site.

I have the list with a copy of the W&B in my aircraft and another copy of both at home with the logs.

To answer the question of if you need the list with the aircraft I'd say yes. Otherwise you would have no idea how the aircraft was actually weighed.

For example was it with or without the rear seat you just removed or reinstalled?

[GAHorn]

All of what George says is true.

I've preserved this so I could save it for posterity, in case I ever need to quote you again, Bruce!

My wt/bal is dated the same as my equipment list, as they are related to each other.

Any changes in equipment than listed would require an update to the list and to the Wt/Bal information. I think it prudent that both be in the aircraft, since together they provide the required info for flight per FAR.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George I just keep giving you fuel don't I. I'll have to be more careful.

Once again you said what I was trying to say. The equipment list is part of the W&B. One is pretty useless without the other.

[voorheesh]

Thankyou for the advice. I am working on an equipment list. Joined yesterday.
Harlow Voorhees
Fresno Chandler Downtown Airport
N167/170A

[bradbrady]

Thankyou for the advice. I am working on an equipment list. Joined yesterday.
Harlow Voorhees
Fresno Chandler Downtown Airport
N167/170A

To put it into perspective, for myself, I would need a equiptment list that I can use at my desk, to chase down your AD's And any other trouble that might arise! (just my oun thoughts)
brad

[N2865C]

The equipment list is part of the W&B. One is pretty useless without the other.

Well let me rephrase my question..... Common sense would dictate that the equipment list should be with the WT. & BAL, but remember we are dealing with the FAA here . I was told once by an IA that the equipment list was not required to be in the plane. I do carry mine, but have never found a definitive answer as to if it is really required to be in the aircraft.

[voorheesh]

The CE-170 Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) states in Note 1. That the current weight and balance report including list of equipment included in certificated empty weight and loading instructions must be in each aircraft at the time of original certification and at all times thereafter (except some air carriers). While I have not seen a definition of "airworthiness" in the regs, most will say that it is "conformance with the TCDS" and/or "properly altered condition". So I think we need to have current w&b and equip list on board. I am going to follow Gahorn's format because it is simple and covers bases.

[alaskan99669]

Wouldn't it be nice if the weights and arms were on the 337's. I've searched through my records dating back to the early '80s and over sixteen 337's submitted and all of them just say "weight and balance updated", but they don't say what that weight was. And of course I don't have the old weight and balance sheets, just the recent ones. I also have STC's, but they do not list weights and arms either. The only place I find that info is on the installation instructions (which you are supposed to keep as a permanent record for your aircraft). Two items I need help with are the weight and arm for Benham Exhaust Extensions and a Seaplane V-Brace. I have all the documentation for the exhaust, but it doesn't list a weight or arm. I have none of the documentation for the V-Brace.

I'm also thinking of starting another thread with a comprehensive list of every item that could conceivably be installed on a 170 listing both it's weight and arm.

[N2255D]

I used to put the weight and balance on my 337's but then the FAA started sending them back because it was on there.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Corey

Yes it would be nice. It would be nice if people in the past did a lot better at record keeping all around not just the equipment list and W&B.

This is why at some point with a 50 something year old aircraft you just have to weigh it again. Then you can start the process of keeping better records for the next 50 years.

Walt I can't understand what W&B being on a 337 would hurt. Probably no guidance to the procedure in the Inspectors manual is the likely reason it was not allowed.

I would think that part of the basic information and specially in the ICA, would be the weight and arm of the equipment installed. After all if it is ever removed how would the paperwork be reversed properly without that information. You have to learn to twist the Feds own rules against them to get what you want. Not that you don't already know this.

[jrenwick]

I used to put the weight and balance on my 337's but then the FAA started sending them back because it was on there.

Are you talking about the aircraft's W&B calculation, or just the arms and weights of what changed?

John