Equipment Lists

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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N2255D
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by N2255D »

I would put the weight and arm of installed or removed equipment and the acft revised W & B.
Walt Weaver
Spencer Airport (NC35)
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rnealon1
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by rnealon1 »

As a new Cessna 170B owner (new owner, not new 170) this thread is really educational. My aircraft has the original equipment list (similar to the one in this thread), and no documentation of any equipment changes since 1954. I have been able to piece some of it together from receipts, but how do complete the rest with no documentation? And what do you include? Engine guages? Strobes? Seats? Yikes!

The STC's and 337's mostly do not provide the necessary information; some equipment such as strobe lights have no documentation at all.

Bob
Bob Nealon

Southbury, CT
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gfeher
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by gfeher »

Bob,

I had to prepare an equipment list, as well as a correct weight and balance report, right after I bought my plane 4 or 5 years ago. Your log books should document all of the equipment changes as well as include the effect on weight and balance. In other words, when something was changed, in the aircraft log book the mechanic who made the change should have identified the item changed as well as it's effect on weight and balance (weight and location). That should provide the information you need to prepare a new equipment list.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Bob, there are two methods you could use. The best most accurate is to weigh the aircraft and prepare a complete equipment list for that weighing and document it in your logs. Basically you have fixed all past sins. You absolutely know where you stand.

The second method is the one I used. You start from scratch. Last known weight and arm with known good equipment list. In my case and maybe yours the only W&B with equipment list you could trust is the original from Cessna. In my case, my 170 has NEVER actually been on a set of scales. Most 170s and most other aircraft as well used a representative W&B. Your original W&B will note whether your airplane was actually weighed with actual weights at the arms or whether representative weights where used. Starting with that document review the logs from start to end for all documented changes making the adjustments to a W&B and equipment list. This record is a continuous historical W&B record. When your done compare your paper equipment list to your actual aircraft. Anything in the aircraft not in the list must be added. Anything on the list you know is not in the aircraft, must be removed. For example on my 170, it came from the factory with a 3-24B tail wheel and a stretcher. Lots of other stuff had been added and subtracted over the years. One of them was the weight of a Scott 3200 tail wheel. Yet the original 3-24B weight had never been removed. And according to the records my 170 had flown all those years with a stretcher installed. Funny I only wish it did have a stretcher but my partner who's owned the plane since 1968 has never seen it. I also discovered radio equipment that had been added and then removed physically but not removed from the w&b. And radio equipment that had been installed but not accounted for in the w&b.

Once your done you should have a pretty good W&B record. I doubt there would be anything in your aircraft you haven't accounted for.

This is the next best thing you can do next to actually weighing your aircraft.
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gfeher
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by gfeher »

Bob, in his second method, Bruce did a much better job of explaining what I mentioned. That's exactly how I prepared my equipment list and W&B report, except my plane was actually weighed in the late '50's and I had an equipment list from that weighing for me to start with. By the way, if you have a report from any time when the plane was actually weighed, check the math. It's not uncommon for there to be errors. There was a not too trivial math error in the report from when my plane was weighed in the late '50's and it carried through all the later W&B reports.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
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rnealon1
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by rnealon1 »

Guys,

Thank you for this great information! The original list did use a representative empty weight; I actually plan to weigh it on my annual later this month so at least I will know the real weight and balance.

The last piece of the puzzle is what equipment to include in the list. I see things such as propeller, spinner, and oil filter included but not engine, seats, engine instruments, etc. I went through the TCDS and made sure anything listed is on my list if installed. I can add the items that are installed but not on the list, but I will not know the exact weight and arm of all these individual items.

I will complete my detective work; I have 6 or 7 revised weight and balance forms which include the math for installed and removed items, as well as a number of revised weight and balance notations in the logbooks which only give the new numbers. I may be able to correlate all of these and reverse engineer the weight and arm of individual items if I have the patience!

Thanks again,

Bob
Bob Nealon

Southbury, CT
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Bob, it takes time and patience. It does not hurt to over describe the condition of your aircraft. Under describing it leaves questions. Originally, as far as Cessna was concerned, there was only 1 engine, the C-145. It was only mounted in one place. No reason to mention it and they did not. It would not hurt if you did.

As for equipment you know is installed but you don't have the weight or arm, still list it but leave the weight and arm blank or state unknown. As you are weighing it, this will make no difference. But it now describes to the next person looking that the equipment was present and should they remove it, they can come up with the weight and arm. BTW with enough detective work one can find the weight of just about anything that might be installed in an aircraft. As for the arm one could always go to the aircraft and measure from the datum to the cg of the equipment to get the arm.
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rnealon1
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by rnealon1 »

Hi Bruce,

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing regarding listing the equipment and measuring from the datum. If I know the actual weight and CG and list the equipment installed, the rest is mostly academic.

Thanks again,

Bob
Bob Nealon

Southbury, CT
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rnealon1
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by rnealon1 »

Cessna 170B Equipment List PDF.pdf
(26.78 KiB) Downloaded 855 times
Here is an equipment list I am working on; it is an Excel file but I can't upload that so converted it to a PDF.

Many of the weights and arms are just approximations but it gives a place to start from.

Bob
Bob Nealon

Southbury, CT
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n2582d
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Re: Equipment Lists

Post by n2582d »

Bob,
That look's great!

As other's have pointed out 65 years of adding and subtracting equipment, paint, upholstery, etc. makes for a rat's nest when trying to document and correct these changes. Cessna didn't do us any favors. They seem pretty lackadaisical in the documentation of their equipment list. My factory equipment list is entitled Cessna 170A even though it's a 170B. The last page shows optional equipment. Weights and arms of various items are hand written in. Barely readable is "nav light flasher" penciled in. One gets the impression that this sheet was taped to the fuselage as it went down the assembly line. At the top of the first page of the equipment list it reads, "When * items replace standard equipment, the actual weight increase or decrease is indicated." So the metal propeller, sensitive altimeter, and 7:00-6 wheel and brake assemblies have an asterisk but, mistakenly I think, the optional pneumatic tire does not. The McCauley 1A170 prop has an asterisk indicating that it is optional equipment yet it--not a wood propeller--is listed as required equipment on the TCDS.

It's interesting what makes the list and what doesn't at the factory. Carburetor air filter, carburetor air heater and mufflers, generator and starter are on the list but magnetos are not. This is because magnetos are not on the TCDS for the C-170. Together with the carburetor and sparkplugs, the magnetos are found on the engine TCDS. So the former stuff -- mufflers, generator, starter, etc.-- are considered airframe rather than engine items.
Factory W&B and Equipment list.pdf
(467.45 KiB) Downloaded 817 times
Gary
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