Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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DaveF
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by DaveF »

DaveF...you're gonna hate me for this....
Well, George, it's hard to hate a guy who's trying to keep me from having a fuel exhaustion accident! :)

I overhauled my fuel valve just before you started this thread, and darned if I know whether my valve has the bushing. It passed the push check you recommended, but I want to know for certain, so I'll just pull the thing back out and see. With the nutplates on the AN3 bolts the worst part of the job will be the defueling.

Dave
Last edited by DaveF on Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GAHorn
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by GAHorn »

Let me be clear... I would not consider the absence of the lower bushing completely disqualifying. BUT... if it's not there then carefully examine it with the cam as far DOWN into the valve as the cam lobes will allow, and look at the cam lobe engagement with the actuation balls. They should run on the center of the cam lobe. If they run high... then use a AN960 or AN960L (thin) washer as a bushing to shim it upwards.

Also, if you find no bushing installed, then with the cam installed attempt to move the cam axially to ascertain that it fits the receptacle in the lower-end of the valve-body properly. (No excess wobble.)

The 170 News article provides the thickness measurements of the bushing found (incorrectly installed) in my valve as well as the thickness of the washers.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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GAHorn
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by GAHorn »

That looks good, although they do ride slightly higher than centered.

Safety the quck-drain to the front fuel-fitting. :wink:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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GAHorn
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by GAHorn »

Aryana, the valve/nut is already drilled. Here's a pic of how to safety it to the forward outlet fitting (disregard the red-arrow, as it points to the hard-to-reinstall mounting nuts of the valve bracket...this pic was borrowed from the article):
Image
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
bagarre
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by bagarre »

My drain valve wasn't drilled either and I just put it in as is.
Being a pipe thread, I didn't think it would tend to back out.
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jrenwick
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by jrenwick »

I'm curious: in the photo earlier in this thread showing the drain valve (or plug) safetied to a fuel line flare fitting, none of the flare fittings are safetied. If any of these fittings loosened, the result would be the same -- loss of fuel, a critical flight safety issue. Why is the drain plug safetied, while the flare fittings have no provision for a safety wire?

There are some similar things in the engine compartment, for instance the oil screen has a safety wire, but the temperature bulb nut does not. How come? If either one loosened, the engine would tend to stop running. :?:

Engine accessories: the carburetor is safety-wired to the manifold, but the mags, generator, etc. are held on by nuts that are not safetied. We accept this without questioning, but who makes the rules? :)
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
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GAHorn
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by GAHorn »

Pipe threads do not ordinarly loosen by vibration. (Sometimes safety-wire is used as a "witness" in lieu of "witness-paint" such as "Torque-Seal" : http://www.skygeek.com/f-900torque-seal-orange-.html )

Mags are normally secured with lock-washers which engage the plain nuts. (Although contrary to popular belief, split type washers are sometimes contributing factors, .... "star" washers are better.)

There are modern industry standards for threaded fasteners which have been developed over recent years, but long-experience has often been the guidance for many applications. A lot depends upon the design of the actual thread...whether or not the threads have "angled" sides in their pitch, have parallel surfaces and their degree of "flatness", and whether or not gaskets are expected to compress with useage or if "clamping force" is specified which will provide sufficient friction to avoid loosening, and/or locking devices are to be used. (Another reason it's important to actually USE a torquemeter, having obtained the correct torque specification when assembling parts.)

Safety wire does not provide adequate substitute for proper torque. It is primarily to serve only as a witness that torque has likely been maintained. In specially/critical applications cotters or lock-nuts are used (such as wing-attach or prop-attach bolts/nuts.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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blueldr
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by blueldr »

Seven pages on this fuel valve thing and not one word, so far, about how excercising your STC and/or using mogas (Auto Fuel) will simply rot the valve right out of the airplane, flood the ramp with gasoline and --- oh well.
BL
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GAHorn
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by GAHorn »

Aryana wrote:
blueldr wrote:Seven pages on this fuel valve thing and not one word, so far, about how excercising your STC and/or using mogas (Auto Fuel) will simply rot the valve right out of the airplane, flood the ramp with gasoline and --- oh well.
I'm curious to take the o-rings from the fuel valve and put one in 100LL, and one in mogas with ethanol to see what happens over time.

Don't the mogas STCs require non ethanol fuel? Mogas without ethanol doesn't do harm, but I guess you can't get it anymore, right?
Yes...STCs specify NO alcohol (ethanol). bluElder is just trying to pizz me off. :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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blakelewis
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by blakelewis »

Thank you George for the article, and all of yous, for this thread!
My valve was leaking around the stem. I bought the FSS-TK-2, and the suggested thin SS washers from McFarlane, and an extra selector valve from ebay to have extra parts and pieces if needed.
There was not a S-1003-9A "bearing" in either valve. Without the "housing position ball and spring" (#1 in the 172 ipc pic you posted) mounted on the stem, I could push in the stem to where the center of the balls were not on the cam. It took 4 thin SS washers to replace the nonexistent S-1003-9A "bearing" on both of valves. 5 washers was too tight. I tried it with no washers and #1 mounted, #1 kept the the cam from moving much, but I still installed the 4 washers.
The valve in my plane had a hand cut rubber gasket, so it had been worked on before.
We used a bit of RTV silicone and stuck nut plates to the valve and went to lunch. I used one of those 4 prong grabber things to grab the bolt and washer, insert and start threading. A 1/4" rachet, a 10" extension with a funky end on it so it can enter the socket at a angle. down through the hole the linkage goes made installation a snap. My A&P also had a short (4") wrench for the flare fittings that help a bunch.

The hole on the bottom skin to access the drain plug does not line up with the drain, so we did not install the drain valve.
There was one difference in the two valves: the "housing position ball and spring" (#1 in the 172 ipc) is as pictures with a square male plug for a socket in the linkage. The one I bought on ebay has a socket on #1 instead. I will probably buy more o-rings and rebuild the second valve for a spare.
I used Parker O-ring Lube on the o-rings. That stuff is the bomb for the primer valve. If it isn't already, lubing the primer should be a yearly maintenance item.
We were careful not to damage the o-ring retainers that the 170B IPC lists in the wrong order.


It don't leak no more,
Blake
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blueldr
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by blueldr »

Quickest way to stop a stem leak on the selector valve is to load up on my favorite brand of ethanol laced mogas. The O rings will swell upand stop the leak. George taught me.
BL
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Sounds great Blake. You and I might have been eye balling that same valve on ebay. I have the older style valve and was thinking, if cheap enough I'd sit it on the shelf in case I ever needed to replace it.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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blakelewis
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by blakelewis »

I have order new orings for the extra valve... If you need it you know where it is.
Blake
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blakelewis
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by blakelewis »

I bought a sump drain (Saf-Air CAV-170) and noticed the package says 'BUNA-N' o-rings. And they are blue instead of black. I think most o-rings spruce sells are VITON, which is not recommended for auto fuels. BUNA-N is recommend for auto fuels and is also what they use with brake fluids. The Cleveland piston o-ring is BUNA-N.

I wish I knew all this before I rebuilt my selector valve. Most likely the reason I need to rebuild was the auto fuel I have been running. Over the last year I have replaced the gascolator drain valve with a Saf-Air, the sump drain o-rings and now the selector valve o-rings. I would have used the BUNA-N if I had known.

The BUNA-N will stand up to auto fuel even if I get some alcohol. I don't burn it much, but when my nephew came down to learn to fly in 2010 he was burning it a lot.

BUNA-N is Nitrile

I bought a 382 piece BUNA-N o-ring kit from "http://www.theoringstore.com/" for $20 + 5 shipping. AircraftSpruce sells the same kit for $89. Too bad the brake piston o-ring (224) is not in the kit. They are only 22 cents.
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Karl Towle
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Re: Fuel valve rebuild and manual mistake WARNING

Post by Karl Towle »

FuelValve1.JPG
First, I'd like to say the information in this thread is worth the price of admission to the 170 Association. I knew I wanted to overhaul the fuel selector valve, but would have had no idea what I was getting myself into were it not for all of the above posts. Thanks to all for their insights, and I am now a member of this exclusive club. Having survived the initiation, I thought I'd try to add to the knowledge base.

1) It's obvious, but loosen the flare nuts on the three fuel lines before going after the two mounting bolts
2) The #10 bolts are relatively easy to drive from the top using a 1/4" wobbly socket, a long extension, and a helper to turn it from above. The 3/8" wrenched #10 locking nuts are what make this job so impossible. They are so close to the back of the valve, that no box end or socket type wrench will fit. I was able to hold them with the open end of an ignition wrench, working my way in from the left rear, loosening the left one first, then the right one. I ended up with my left arm through the opening behind the flap handle, holding the wobbly socket on the bolt, and my right arm through the rectangle opening behind the tunnel, holding a wrench through the hole in the bulkhead that is immediately aft of the valve. My wife turned the ratchet!
3) The valve was easy to disassemble. The 0513120-4 retainers in mine were loose, and flopped around inside their respective cavities. However, they didn't seem to want to fall out, and I didn't try. After learning how expensive they are to replace, I was really careful not to allow one to fall out when I wasn't looking. A dental pick WAS really helpful.
4) My cam did NOT have an extra washer on top, nor did it have any washer or bushing below. There was a very nice wear pattern in the center of the cam. On re-assembly, I did not install the outlet fitting until AFTER assembling the cam, top O-ring, gasket and top cover. At this stage, I could move the cam to the top and bottom of its possible travel, and verify that it did not come close to releasing the two balls.
5) The McFarlane kit I purchased (it has gone up significantly in price) was perfect, except it came with a .093" diameter roll-pin. I'll be calling them next week to inquire into the reason. Fortunately I had the requisite .125" x 0.5" roll pin in stock. Start the roll pin into the block with a brass hammer on a hard surface. Then, holding the valve in a vise, set the ball in the appropriate detent, insert the spring, press down, and squeeze the roll pin the rest of the way in with a pair of channel lock pliers.
6) I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, but elsewhere is the suggestion that the roll pin be backed up by threading safety wire through it. The Aussies have made this an airworthiness directive I believe. Since a roll pin migrating out causes a really ugly failure mode, I considered this a very necessary additional step.
7) On re-assembly, I started the flare nuts, but left them very loose BEFORE installing the bolts. The bolts are difficult to even start in their respective holes. Figure on working almost entirely in the blind.
8) I personally loved the idea of fabricating a strip of aluminum with two #10 nut plates on it. This makes the job of lining up the nuts a whole lot easier. When one is started, the other one is automatically squared and lined up. I'm attaching some pictures of my finished valve as well as the nut-plate-strip. As an alternative, one could use two "jet nuts," or "K-nuts" in lieu of the original nuts. http://www.aircraftfast.com/jet-nuts.htm These would allow use of a 1/4" box end wrench to hold the nut while tightening. Starting any type of individual fastener (K-nut or unattached nut plate) is likely to be more difficult, but holding either of them would be much easier.
9) The SafeAir CAV-110H4 drain valve was installed for its obvious safety enhancement. I chose the long-stem version because I was not certain the CAV-110 version would extend far enough below the belly to keep fuel out of the airplane should the drain seep fuel in-flight. In the past, I've had a bit of grit stick in one of these valves and allow a very slow seepage.

I hope the above information will save someone out there some acute future frustration.

Karl

BTW - I took the time to make a very accurate pattern. If anyone should want a fabricated nut-plate-strip, I would be willing to replicate one for a reasonable donation.
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