Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

Moderators: gahorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby frfsgpo1 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Next question, where is a good place to mount fire extinguisher. Mine is mounted down by front passengers left foot. Not great for flying from right seat. If question offends anybody feel free not to respond.
User avatar
frfsgpo1
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:16 pm

Re: Flap horn bracket

Postby gfeher » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:21 pm

frfsgpo1 wrote:Next question, where is a good place to mount fire extinguisher. Mine is mounted down by front passengers left foot. Not great for flying from right seat. If question offends anybody feel free not to respond.


When I bought my plane, it had brackets under each of the pilot's and passenger's seats. I currently only keep one under the pilot's seat because I usually fly solo. Before doing so, though, I tested whether I could use it fairly easily. It seemed like as good a location as any. The extinguisher faces forward in the bracket (fore and aft with the top/nozzle and guage portion forward), and the bracket is placed so I can unlatch it by putting my hand under the seat from the side. I can then slide the extinguisher out forward between my legs.

Wherever you plan on putting it, I suggest you carefully test whether you can grab and use it fairly easily in flight.

By the way, AvWeb has a couple of good archived articles on selection of a fire extinguisher for aircraft use.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
User avatar
gfeher
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:19 pm
Location: Greenwich, NY based at 1C3

Re: Flap horn bracket

Postby frfsgpo1 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:31 pm

Thanks. I will play around with that location. Cheers.
User avatar
frfsgpo1
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:16 pm

Re: Flap horn bracket

Postby gahorn » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:29 am

The IPC illustrates a fire ext. located on the seat frame but it is an old-style water extinguisher and I’ve not seen how this location can be used with those seat frames with “skirts”.

I like to keep mine beneath the rear seat attached to the center-support, aligned fore/aft, where I can reach it in-flight. (But presently it’s removed for replacement. Thanks for the reminder.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
gahorn
 
Posts: 18736
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Flap horn bracket

Postby wabuchanan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:57 pm

Mine is located between the seats, just aft of the fuel valve, with nozzle forward. Either pilot or passenger can reach down and unlatch and use it.
Attachments
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_7acf.jpg
1950 170A N5776C SN:19730
User avatar
wabuchanan
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:51 am
Location: Snohomish, WA

Re: Flap horn bracket

Postby n2582d » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:32 pm

John's installation.
Gary
User avatar
n2582d
 
Posts: 2211
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:58 am
Location: Mariposa, CA

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby gahorn » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:38 am

Just as a note on fire extinguishers... I recall a story (when I was an Aeronca Owners Club Member) of a Champ going down in flames and an observer noted the pilot was standing on the landing-gear outside the cockpit while reaching back into the burning cockpit trying to control the descent with his hand on the stick. He was unsuccessful in his attempt to survive.

I have a difficult time imagining how any fire in such a small airplane as ours could be handled with a cockpit extinguisher. The main virtue of the extinguisher (which I can imagine) might be a carburetor fire from a flooded start-attempt, yet few people have observers outside during the engine start to notify them of a fire (in time to save the aircraft from significant damage.)

Most military (and old-time airlines using recip engines) standard procedures included a fire-extinguisher-equipped ground crew during engine starts. The marshaller’s signal to the cockpit crew of a fire was/is the marshaller lowering his body and waving his hands, palms down, just above the “tarmac” so-as to mimic flame-spreading-heat. The crew could then shut-down and deploy onboard fire extinguishers such as engine fire-bottles, etc. and evacuate the aircraft.

Have we considered what actions we might take in the event of a fire on the ground? In the Air?

Or if we observe an aircraft on the ramp or taxiway with flames evident? How would you respond?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
gahorn
 
Posts: 18736
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby gfeher » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:41 am

A fire extinguisher in the cabin is probably only good in the case of an electrical fire in the cockpit. But, it's better than nothing.

As an aside, a friend of mine survived a fire in his open cockpit homebuilt this past summer when one of the cells in his lithium-ion starter battery on his firewall had a runaway event. The cockpit started filling with smoke, but he was near the airport and got it down quickly. Fortunately it didn't spread to any other cells of the battery and there was little damage to the aircraft. Needless to say, it scared the bejeezes out of him.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
User avatar
gfeher
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:19 pm
Location: Greenwich, NY based at 1C3

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby ghostflyer » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:16 am

Some of the questions raised are very important but the answers are even more important and the answers can be more harmful to you and the aircraft. I have had a fire in my aircraft and I do carry a fire extinguisher. It’s a BCF type. The cabin was full of smoke ,had trouble seeing outside . The fumes were choking and my wife could only squeak like a parrot when she was trying to say something . I couldn’t see the flames or feel them . Opening the windows only made it far worse .
So what extinguisher would you use ? Dry powder ? It’s poisonous to humans and wrecks the internals of the aircraft .[very corrosive] , BCF ? It’s a poisonous to humans and to the ozone layer.[had to put that in to keep the greenies happy]. CO2 ? Carbon dioxide doesn’t support life . Letting a extinguisher off in that small space of a cabin could put the fire out but will put you out also.
What I did in my situation was switch off systems that I thought was causing the fire and AVIATE the aircraft . I had just replaced the battery but the smoke and smell wasn’t electrical. I carry the BCF fire extinguisher as it’s the law. The problem was I had sucked up a wet paint rag that was blowing along the runway and it went into my heater muff.
Ps. I my humble opinion a water spraying extinguisher would be the best .
A fire on board is something I hadn’t briefed my wife or any body before. As I had pulled back on power for a landing my smoke had cleared so I told my wife as soon we were on the ground ,the brakes were going on and as we stop , you jump out and run to the rear of the aircraft and keep running . I did too.
User avatar
ghostflyer
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:06 am
Location: queensland ,australia

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby gfeher » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:18 pm

Here are links to the two articles I mentioned above. (They were Aviation Consumer, not AvWeb, articles. Sorry for the misdirection.) They discuss the same issues raised by David (ghostflyer) and are worth reading if you are thinking about buying or using an extinguisher for the cabin. The bottom line of the articles: although they are more expensive, you should have a Halon or Halotron extinguisher.

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/safety ... -dry-chem/

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/uncate ... -the-cost/

(Because the articles are safety related, you can view them without a subscription. The Aviation Consumer website has a lot of good safety-related articles that you can view for free.)
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
User avatar
gfeher
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:19 pm
Location: Greenwich, NY based at 1C3

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby gahorn » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:28 am

BCF is an acronym that most “Yanks” are unfamiliar. It’s Bromochlorodifluoromethane .... a Halogen type extinguisher also known as “1211” and is no longer legal or supported. (Outlawed last century actually as it is a type of freon.)

Modern aircraft extinguishers are usually a different but similar type known as “Halotron”.

Most folks buy/use dry-chemical extinguishers because of cost. They are cheap. But the way they fight fire is the powder melts and smothers the fire and fuel and leave a corrosive “crusty” residue that is difficult to remove. Not good for what remains of the airplane to clean up. But better than nothing.

Meanwhile.... pay attention to what kinds of fires your extinguisher is rated for. They are usually rated such as type “A” or “AB” or “ABC” type fires.

What does that mean? Here’s an easy way to remember:

Type A.... is for fires that leave an Ash... like wood, paper, cloth.

Type B... is for fires that involve fluids, things that can Boil... like gasoline, oil, etc.

Type C... is for fires that can carry electrical Current.... wiring harness, batteries, etc.

The most useful extinguishers have a short section of HOSE rather than only a short metal nozzle. This allows one to direct the extinguishing toward the base of the fire. For example, UP under a panel, or BENEATH a seat, or ARound a corner, while still holding the extinguisher UPRIGHT to obtain the maximum amount dispersed available from within the tank.

Extinguishers rated for 1A, 5BC are probably of minimum use. Better would be 1A,10BC. And Halotron is preferred, but ANY type is better than none. (Water extinguishers are only rated for Type A fires, would be not appropriate for fuel or electrical fires, and are relatively heavy to have any capacity. A 6-pack of ordinary drinking bottles of water on board would qualify for a Type A extinguisher, IMO, and then buy the highest capacity Type BC you can afford and fit in the cabin. NEVER throw water on fuel, oil or electrical fires. It will only spread the fuel/oil and make things worse as the fuel will float on top of the water. Water on a hot electrical/battery fire can cause sparking and explosion of batteries, (Lithium batteries such as computers, cell phones, airframes, are especially difficult. It’s best to toss the computer or phone overboard. Handheld extinguishers are unlikely to help an airframe battery and getting close enough to remove it from the aircraft is unlikely. It’ll take professional fire fighting men and equipment. Get away from it.

Remember: Get on the ground and evacuate. If you have an in-flight fire, keep in mind: This thing now belongs to the Insurance Company.... it’s my job to get on the ground, get everyone out of it and let them have it! NOW! Don’t waste a moment!

Hope that helps.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
gahorn
 
Posts: 18736
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby TFA170 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:38 am

gahorn wrote:What does that mean? Here’s an easy way to remember:

Type A.... is for fires that leave an Ash... like wood, paper, cloth.

Type B... is for fires that involve fluids, things that can Boil... like gasoline, oil, etc.

Type C... is for fires that can carry electrical Current.... wiring harness, batteries, etc.



Just for completeness, not that we have a big need in our aircraft, but...

Type D... is for fires of flammable metals like magnesium, sodium, and even titanium - but magnesium is by far the most common.
User avatar
TFA170
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:18 am
Location: 74FL

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby gfeher » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:13 pm

Just a further clarification on lithium battery fires. George is absolutely right that if you can, you should throw the device with the burning battery out the window. But if you can't (such as when you are on an airliner), douse it with lots of water. Lithium battery fires are caused by thermal runaway of at least one cell. So you need to both put out the fire and cool the battery so the thermal runaway does not continue. The FAA's video shows that lots of plain old water is the most effective for doing this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3cUES1xojrs. It's an interesting video.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
User avatar
gfeher
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:19 pm
Location: Greenwich, NY based at 1C3

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby n2582d » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:04 pm

Living in the foothills of the Sierras where wildfires have become a way of life every summer the suggestion to throw burning material out the window makes me uneasy. Unfortunately there are not a lot of good alternatives.

N 8900.430 Procedures for Fighting In-Flight Fires Associated With Portable Electronic Devices and Lithium Batteries When Using Commercially Marketed Containment Products

AC 120-80A In-Flight Fires is primarily written for transport category operators but has some useful information for general aviation as well.

SAFO 09013 Fighting Fires Caused By Lithium Type Batteries in Portable Electronic Devices
Gary
User avatar
n2582d
 
Posts: 2211
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:58 am
Location: Mariposa, CA

Re: Fire Extinguisher Mounting (split from flaphorn)

Postby hilltop170 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:02 pm

Here’s a question for debate.

What would cause a bigger forest fire, a cell phone thrown out of a plane with a burning Lithium battery or a burning airplane crash?

The local fire extinguisher guy here in Fredericksburg has given me several 2lb, 5lb, and 20lb Halon extinguishers that I have put to good use in strategic locations. He is glad to give them away and get rid of them after he removes them from businesses. Score for me! Luckily never had to use one yet.

I use Adel clamps under my seat frame to attach the extinguisher frame with its stock latch to the seat frame where it is easy to reach with one hand.

After working in very large closed-in and sealed-up oil field facilities in the Arctic for 20 years that are still protected by huge quantities of Halon, and being a firefighter that has responded to multiple facility fires where Halon has been dumped, I can confirm Halon is the absolute BEST agent to extinguish hydrocarbon and electrical fires. Not so much for Class A (wood, paper, fabric) fires that need a coolant to prevent flare-ups. Luckily not much of that in airplanes that isn’t flame retardant.

I hear Halotron is ok and better than dry chemical but not as good as the real thing Halon.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
User avatar
hilltop170
 
Posts: 3276
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm
Location: Retired in Alaska and the Texas hill country

Next

Return to The Hangar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests