New 170B owner
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Re: New 170B owner
Sorry Bruce, I was referring to the heavy duty springs that George was recommending at the beginning of this thread. I do not use them but I do use the heavy duty chains
- Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: New 170B owner
Ah. The Scott heavy duty PN 3239 springs are the standard spring for a Cessna 170 as is the regular sash chain that comes with it in the kit. The reference to "heavy duty" differentiates this spring from Scotts other tail wheel spring 2151 which is not "heavy duty" used on Cubs, Champs and other lighter aircraft.FredL wrote:Sorry Bruce, I was referring to the heavy duty springs that George was recommending at the beginning of this thread. I do not use them but I do use the heavy duty chains
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Re: New 170B owner
"Sash" chain or "jack" chain (whichever you choose to call it) is certainly stronger than the swivel-clutch break-out force is. Never heard of the chain breaking at all.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Re: New 170B owner
The weakest link (ouch) might be the little metal tabs on the rudder horn.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
Re: New 170B owner
Just got done with our first annual on N138WW. Just a couple small surprises and two months later it is back in the air. Picture is of the tailcone area. I am embarrassed to admit that I had missed this during my prebuy. I had boroscoped everywhere I could think of but failed to go through the rudder cable exits and look at this critical area back there. Critters had been partying back there obviously, and I was very concerned over possible corrosion so off cam the tail. Removed elevators, rudder, stab and fin. Good news was that after power washing I found absolutely no corrosion on any of the bulkheads, stringers or skins back there. Those diagonal stringers riveted to the sides are famous for intergranular corrosion causing them to puff up and basically disintegrate. I acid etched and scrubbed for an hour. Flushed, alodined and epoxy primed that entire area. Cable fairleads and all looked good so it went back together with all new hardware, which is another story. Those internal wrenching bolts can be difficult to find in small quantities but it is possible. I purchased them for around 9 bucks a bolt. Make sure you get and use the special washers for those bolts!
The other surprise was a bad cylinder. With only 475 since major I had one that I could not get above 20psi. Staked the valves and did everything short of the rope trick. SInce there was a fair amount of leakage from the rings (breather noise) we decided to pull it. This cylinder was the odd man out, in that it is the only cylinder without the bronze type spark plug insert. Must have been replaced at some time but could not find it in the logs. Our cylinder shop said that the cylinder had a severe wear step at the top of piston travel, and both seats were no sealing well. We ended up swapping for an new/overhauled chrome cylinder. We thought of a new Millenium but they are not sold in chrome and we worried about the fact that most these things only fly 50 hours a year. Now we put 175 on it this year but its new to us and there are four of us flying it. Steel cylinders sitting in the humid texas weather might be trouble. All other cylinders were in the low 70s.
Installed a stereo 4 place intercom, EGT/CHT, got a deal on a JPI/450 fuel flow and installed that. New carpet and alot of cleaning. Two months of free time work and of course it flies perfectly. Can't get that tail wheel to steer worth a darn with only rudder travel but I am convinced that is the design and not our airplane. All in all I feel like we have a mechanically solid airplane. Might throw a buck of paint its way next year.
Well it doesn't look like the picture post is working, at least I can't get it to. So no pics, sorry
The other surprise was a bad cylinder. With only 475 since major I had one that I could not get above 20psi. Staked the valves and did everything short of the rope trick. SInce there was a fair amount of leakage from the rings (breather noise) we decided to pull it. This cylinder was the odd man out, in that it is the only cylinder without the bronze type spark plug insert. Must have been replaced at some time but could not find it in the logs. Our cylinder shop said that the cylinder had a severe wear step at the top of piston travel, and both seats were no sealing well. We ended up swapping for an new/overhauled chrome cylinder. We thought of a new Millenium but they are not sold in chrome and we worried about the fact that most these things only fly 50 hours a year. Now we put 175 on it this year but its new to us and there are four of us flying it. Steel cylinders sitting in the humid texas weather might be trouble. All other cylinders were in the low 70s.
Installed a stereo 4 place intercom, EGT/CHT, got a deal on a JPI/450 fuel flow and installed that. New carpet and alot of cleaning. Two months of free time work and of course it flies perfectly. Can't get that tail wheel to steer worth a darn with only rudder travel but I am convinced that is the design and not our airplane. All in all I feel like we have a mechanically solid airplane. Might throw a buck of paint its way next year.
Well it doesn't look like the picture post is working, at least I can't get it to. So no pics, sorry
Re: New 170B owner
Out of order, and twisted, but I am learning. I have figured out the resize issue. Now need to figure out why they get turned on their sides. But these are pictures of the tail. Dirty one after years of sitting in the back of a hanger. Cleaned, etched and primed.
- cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4063
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
Re: New 170B owner
Nice work! It’s good to good bones under all that rubble.
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
- Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: New 170B owner
When you place the photo in your text, you can put it in any order you want, not necessarily the order you upload the attachment. For example in your raw post below change the order of the attachment lines. You can copu and paste them correctly or simply place then right to start.goodair wrote: Out of order, and twisted, but I am learning. I have figured out the resize issue. Now need to figure out why they get turned on their sides. But these are pictures of the tail. Dirty one after years of sitting in the back of a hanger. Cleaned, etched and primed.
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Out of order, and twisted, but I am learning. I have figured out the resize issue. Now need to figure out why they get turned on their sides. But these are pictures of the tail. Dirty one after years of sitting in the back of a hanger. Cleaned, etched and primed.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Re: New 170B owner
Oddly today after flight discovered the left sash chain broken in half, will have to replace. Any specs on what gauge of safety wire is required so I can have it on hand?gahorn wrote:"Sash" chain or "jack" chain (whichever you choose to call it) is certainly stronger than the swivel-clutch break-out force is. Never heard of the chain breaking at all.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Nealon
Southbury, CT
Southbury, CT
Re: New 170B owner
Also, how much slack is supposed to be in these chains? Mine have had some slack in them but I see some with spring tension on them.
Thanks,
Bob
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Nealon
Southbury, CT
Southbury, CT
Re: New 170B owner
No slack and no tension. In other words, no tension, but all the slack taken up. Depending on the length of the sash chain, you can rotate the chain a bit to take up some slack if needed after you have the least number of chain links without putting tension on the spring. I've found the best way to get the right length is to use shackles where the springs attach to the rudder. The shackles are about 1 1/2 the length of a chain link, which introduces a 1/2 link adjustment increment into the chain, which at least on my plane is needed to get the chain length just right. Plus the shackles reduce wear in the holes in the rudder tabs.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
Re: New 170B owner
One possibility is the guard beneath the leafsprings-clamp is missing. When pivoting tightly the chain can catch beneath the clamp and snag, either preventing the tailwheel from trailing or returning to neutral or perhaps snapping the chain. Be certain yours is present.rnealon1 wrote:Oddly today after flight discovered the left sash chain broken in half, will have to replace. Any specs on what gauge of safety wire is required so I can have it on hand?gahorn wrote:"Sash" chain or "jack" chain (whichever you choose to call it) is certainly stronger than the swivel-clutch break-out force is. Never heard of the chain breaking at all.
Thanks,
Bob
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
- Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: New 170B owner
As for the strength or perhaps specialty of the sash chain used on aircraft tailwheel controls, I'd never been able to detect any difference from that supplied by Spruce or Univair and my local hardware store. Like any part, you secure no matter the source, you must determine its airworthiness. Certainly when sash chain is bought at your hardware store, one must be sure they are getting real sash chain, not a decretive chain. Presumably Spruce and Univair have done that but you won't get any certificates for the chain when you buy from them.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Re: New 170B owner
I have sash chain I bought loose (by the foot) from Aircraft Spruce and sash chain that was included in a packaged tension steering spring set that I bought for my 170B (from Univair I think, but possible Spruce), and they have different thicknesses. The chain in the steering spring set is a thicker gauge. The loose chain gauge might be fine, but I prefer the thicker one for the 170.
Edit: While I was at my hangar today I checked the two sash chains I mentioned above. The packaged steering spring set was purchased from Univair as p/n U3239A-103, but the sash chain in the set has its own Univair p/n U3239A-015. The sheet metal of the loose Aircraft Spruce chain measured out at about 1/32" T. The sheet metal of the Univair chain measured out at about 1/16" T, about 2x as thick.
Edit: While I was at my hangar today I checked the two sash chains I mentioned above. The packaged steering spring set was purchased from Univair as p/n U3239A-103, but the sash chain in the set has its own Univair p/n U3239A-015. The sheet metal of the loose Aircraft Spruce chain measured out at about 1/32" T. The sheet metal of the Univair chain measured out at about 1/16" T, about 2x as thick.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
Re: New 170B owner
Hi All,gfeher wrote:No slack and no tension. In other words, no tension, but all the slack taken up. Depending on the length of the sash chain, you can rotate the chain a bit to take up some slack if needed after you have the least number of chain links without putting tension on the spring. I've found the best way to get the right length is to use shackles where the springs attach to the rudder. The shackles are about 1 1/2 the length of a chain link, which introduces a 1/2 link adjustment increment into the chain, which at least on my plane is needed to get the chain length just right. Plus the shackles reduce wear in the holes in the rudder tabs.
In regard to the slack/tension, is this addressed anywhere in the 100 Service Manual or elsewhere? My A&P says there should be slack but he is not a 170 expert.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Nealon
Southbury, CT
Southbury, CT