pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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Vertical
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:41 am

pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by Vertical »

Hello,

I'm under contract to purchase to purchase a beautiful 52 C170B advertised with no damage history and most of the Alaska mods I want. However after the prebuy we discovered a substantial damage and repair in 63. (Likely a ground loop with left gear and wing damage) documented plainly in both the log book and a 337. It seems to have been repaired correctly.

The other big issue is some damage to the right gear box that was not in the logs, but was repaired. However, the repair seems suspect. Once again, the owner claim he knows nothing about it. The obvious sign is the slightly rippled skin just aft of the gear leg. This has 180 gear and the pponk stc kit installed.

Here is the report from the prebuy:
evidence of damage to fuselage at lower attaché point of RH strut.
Sheared rivets at RH In board gear casting angle.
Outboard RH lower gear casting bracket bolted, not riveted on

Aside from the notes above the repair also consists of riveting a hat channel between the aft gear bulkhead and the next bulkhead down. This effectively stiffens the slightly crumpled area just aft of the gear leg.

I think I have read every applicable post on this forum and have studied sections 19-14 through 19-53 of the 100 service service manual. I believe I understand fairly well what would need to be done to correctly fix his issue. Including (but not limited to) pulling the floor, replacing the entire belly skin and installing a new outer casting from pponk.

So long story short, my question is whether or not I should buy an aircraft and inherit this problem. What I have not been able to find is any type of cost estimate for this work. Is this a 5k issue or a 15k Issue?

The excitement of flying this bird home is quickly diminishing along with my trust in the owner and what else he is not disclosing.

I could likely negotiate a reduced sale price, but don't know where to start. Can anyone provide any insight? I need to make some decisions by tomorrow (Monday 10/14).


Thank you.
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pdb
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:39 am

Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by pdb »

I don’t think you are going to get the information you need today to make a sound decision by tomorrow except to decline. And it strikes me as an arbitrary deadline. If the seller is imposing it on you, walk away. It’s going to take some time and expertise to resolve.

I am also not sure what you mean by a prebuy inspection. Did the mechanic affirmatively say the aircraft is airworthy? If not, did he tell you exactly what needs to be done to render it airworthy? There are too many red flags here for haste.
Pete Brown
Anchorage, Alaska
N4563C 1953 170B
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2366/2527 ... 4e43_b.jpg
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lowNslow
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by lowNslow »

I agree with Pete, either get more time to see if this is fixable and how much it will cost or walk away quickly.
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
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IA DPE
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by IA DPE »

Del Lehman of Mountain Airframe in Mena, AR (Wingnut on these forums) has lots of experience working on C-170s and likely could answer your questions (including WAG price estimate) better than most here.
1955 C170B N2993D s/n 26936
1986 DG-400 N9966C
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Vertical
Posts: 151
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by Vertical »

All sound advise. Thank you for the quick replies.

The time issue is somewhat self imposed as I traveled to visit his plane, and would like to at least make the decision to cut bait or invest more time and energy before I fly home. It simply becomes more difficult when I'm not at the plane to coordinate further assesment, inspections etc.

I have a few leads to chase Monday morning once folks open for business, and I'll see if I can reach Del.

From what I saw on the forum, it seemed like belly wrinkles and gear box work was common enough that someone might have a ballpark price spread.

Once again, thank you for the responses.
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c170b53
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by c170b53 »

Lots of opinions are possible with this scenario. My day to day work is defined by risk management. No doubt many here are likely in the same boat at their job. In this case why take the risk unless you feel you have the insurance plus a cushion?
For repairing the plane, factor in the unknown, parts cost, labor, the availability of that labor and aircraft downtime. It won't be cheap. Small wrinkles in the area about the hole for the brake line in the belly skins (should be a one piece belly I think if its a true 52) are not uncommon, its a weak point, bigger wrinkles means bigger stuff is moving and that can't be good. A sheared rivet , no big deal but plural in the gearbox, the plane may be unsafe. I"ll take heat for this next one, but if the repairs were sound as evidenced by no further damage since the last repair, then likely you could proceed with the thought of part replacement at you convenience. In other words a 60 yr old plane won't be perfect but over time you can make it as good as it gets. Question specifically here is, really when was the last repair? If there's undocumented obvious damage then likely there's a lot more hiding in wait.
Lastly, again just my spin. It may seem there's nothing available then a bunch are for sale. I've seen a few ads for 170's ( I try to find them all :wink: ) and they were good deals. I've at the same time seen seeking 170's ads and I think its seldom a plane will drop right into a seekers lap. I'm not saying it can't happen. A cheap plane is seldom cheap in the long run. Buy the most plane that you can, a solid plane and add the mods as you go would be my advice so I guess I'm saying I think you can do better.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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n2582d
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:58 am

Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by n2582d »

To add to the excellent advice above I'd say:
1.) You might save money in the long run by joining the organization and taking a look at what's in the Mx Library. The Cessna Structural Repair Manual tells what to look for after a hard landing.
2.) Many here strongly suggest getting an Annual Inspection rather than a Pre-Buy Inspection. Some of us learn too late. :oops:
3.) The fact that the seller has not been honest regarding damage history would raise a red flag for me.
4.) Look for ancillary damage on a plane that has been groundlooped. My plane has been groundlooped at least twice. I found the seat frames bent and cracked, damage that was impossible to spot with the upholstery still on.
Gary
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mit
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by mit »

If you are looking for a 170 that has been worked and is in perfect condition...…….. Well :? If you want the plane make a lower offer and fix it the way you want or look for another one.
Tim
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ghostflyer
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by ghostflyer »

RUN away ,don’t walk away from this one . The owner must have read HIS log book for the aircraft at some time and said it hadn’t been damaged in his advert . ‘Really” .so what else is he hiding ? You could always buy another and mod it up to your specs.thats half the fun.
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Vertical
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by Vertical »

I'm a little late in replying, as my work takes over sometimes. I figured I should wrap up the thread.

After due diligence, research and the help from this forum, I circled back to being ready to accept the issues I discovered and work with the owner to purchase the plane.

The owner had been getting oil analysis done regularly for a few years and had provided me copies during the pre-buy inspections. On the the day we were to close the deal I discovered that he had withheld the most recent oil analysis. This was the one warning of elevated aluminum, iron and noting likely corrosion not consistent with the hours on the motor.

Regardless of the what the test results reveal about the motor, the continued dishonesty of the seller was more telling. Needless to say, I passed on the purchase. Maybe it will be a good bird for someone, maybe not. Hard to tell.

A few things I learned:
1. The quick and candid responses on this forum were really appreciated. The wealth of knowledge stockpiled here is remarkable.
2. Del Lehman of Mountain Airframe is great. I wouldn't hesitate to give him my business or recommend others to do so.
3. There are some really shady folks out there.

Still looking...
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c170b53
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Re: pre-buy results. Urgent advice needed.

Post by c170b53 »

Hopefully the collective group can help in your search
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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