170 Purchase Help and Advice

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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Bruffy
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:40 pm

170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by Bruffy »

Afternoon,
I'm interested in a '48 170 out in the Portland area and I'm trying to figure out the process of purchasing an aircraft. This will be my first aircraft purchase if I go through with it so it's a little daunting. Anyways, I have not seen it in person, just seen pics and some log book entries. I'm pretty far away in San Antonio so I don't want to spend money yet on a plane ticket. I think my next step would be to get a pre purchase inspection done. First off, does anyone recommend a good place to take it in the Portland area? I found Troutdale Aircraft Services and they look pretty good and they're a Cessna service center, I'll call them tomorrow for some more info. Does anyone have any experience with them? They can probably explain to me too the differences between a pre purchase inspection and an annual, thinking an annual is way more thorough?

Some stats and concerns I have with the c145 engine: 500 SMOH done 30 years ago however it was said to have been pickled for at least 10 years, should I expect this to be recorded in the logs? The current owner had this c145 installed a year ago and has since flown it 40 hours. Compressions all in 60s and 70s which from what I can gather about the Continentals are decent numbers. Looks like last oil change was a year ago at it's last annual when it had a lot of work done including the engine install. Magnetos timed, cylinders borescoped, plugs cleaned and gapped. Any thoughts or opinions on this engine?

The logs say that the airplane had been in storage since the 90s until a year ago. At that time it was disassembled, cleaned and "areas of corrosion were treated and painted" including cockpit floor. Other things done at that time include: Fuel tanks/system cleaned and flushed, new windshield, wheel bearings cleaned and repacked, brake system bled, tailwheel springs cleaned, new flap springs, controls checked for proper throw/cables tensioned, new hardware for all control surfaces. Any thoughts or opinions?

One other thing that is a small concern to me is that it does not have a transponder nor has it ever. I would definitely like one to fly into the Houston area but the way I see it with the 2020 ADS-B requirement even if it did have a transponder I'd have to update it anyways pretty soon. I'm still learning about the different options there but I reckon I'd be looking at $3-4k for that with or without a transponder currently installed. Anyways, I appreciate any and all advice and wisdom y'all can impart on me. This isn't something I want to rush into and I want to make sure I have all the information I can get before hand.

Thanks
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GAHorn
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by GAHorn »

Bruffy wrote:.... They can probably explain to me too the differences between a pre purchase inspection and an annual, thinking an annual is way more thorough?

Some stats and concerns I have with the c145 engine: 500 SMOH done 30 years ago however it was said to have been pickled for at least 10 years, should I expect this to be recorded in the logs? The current owner had this c145 installed a year ago and has since flown it 40 hours. Compressions all in 60s and 70s which from what I can gather about the Continentals are decent numbers. Looks like last oil change was a year ago at it's last annual when it had a lot of work done including the engine install. Magnetos timed, cylinders borescoped, plugs cleaned and gapped. Any thoughts or opinions on this engine?

The logs say that the airplane had been in storage since the 90s until a year ago. At that time it was disassembled, cleaned and "areas of corrosion were treated and painted" including cockpit floor. Other things done at that time include: Fuel tanks/system cleaned and flushed, new windshield, wheel bearings cleaned and repacked, brake system bled, tailwheel springs cleaned, new flap springs, controls checked for proper throw/cables tensioned, new hardware for all control surfaces. Any thoughts or opinions?

One other thing that is a small concern to me is that it does not have a transponder nor has it ever. I would definitely like one to fly into the Houston area but the way I see it with the 2020 ADS-B requirement even if it did have a transponder I'd have to update it anyways pretty soon. I'm still learning about the different options there but I reckon I'd be looking at $3-4k for that with or without a transponder currently installed. Anyways, I appreciate any and all advice and wisdom y'all can impart on me. This isn't something I want to rush into and I want to make sure I have all the information I can get before hand.

Thanks
In a word... the difference between a "pre buy inspection" and an "annual inspection"... is LEGALITY. The prebuy inspection is a loose idea and differs with anyone/everyone and has no enforceable definition. The only inspection which certifies the airplane is airworthy for flight is an annual inspection.

As for the log entries: They likely do not mean what you think they mean. For instance, they do not mean the airplane has been cared for. (I'll bet you thought they were positive comments.) "tailwheel springs cleaned" is meaningless. "new hardware for all control surfaces" is also meaningless. It would be a lot more descriptive, for example, to say that the "Pn 1234567 belcrank bolts were changed" or "the cotter pins were replaced in the castle nuts".... either of which might also be almost useless info. An annual inspection will tell you about the condition of the flight controls. The prebuy may or may not, but even it if says they're "good to go"... you have no recourse against the pre-buy inspector once you pay his fee. The annual inspector however, has a FAA described process he must certify as having accomplished before he signs that log.

Cylinders boroscoped? So what. Unless you have it done again that is of little or no value as far as protection of your investment is concerned.

Fuel system "cleaned and flushed" is nice...but what about the condition of the fuel tanks installation within the wing? Rust, corrosion, and attachment can be an issue with these old airplanes. And the 48-model "ragwing" also must have a fuel pump and check valve, no easy way around it .
What about the wing coverings? When was the fabric last done? What type/system of covering was used. What is it's present condition? (A prebuy can tell you it "looks good" and an annual will tell you if it IS good. Or not.)

The transponder can be addressed one of two basic ways. You can install a simple, basic txdr and plan in the future for an "add-on" ADS-B interface such as the Garmin GDL82. Or you can install a Garmin GTX 335 ADS-b out txdr. Either way you're looking at $3K minimum and posssibly as much as $5K depending on how you negotiate and with whom.

I live just north of you up hwy 281 about an hour near Marble Falls. PM me with your contact info if you'd like to visit.
Hope this helps.
George
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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DaveF
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Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by DaveF »

I'd first ask, why this particular airplane? If it's because the price is low, beware that project airplanes eat money. The price difference between a project and a beauty may seem like a lot until you start having to fix or repair things. If you find yourself saying "that's ok, I can take care of that", or "cheap to fix", or "they're all like that", then you need to look at another airplane. Every squawk belongs to the seller until you sign the contract, and then they're all yours.

The engine story would make me worry, not necessarily because of dishonesty, but that's kind of an old engine. I recommend you look for one that's been flying and had regular maintenance. Also, buying an out of town airplane costs a couple of thousand extra because of the travel. I'd exhaust my local area before looking more than a comfortable day's drive away. I'd think you should be able to find quite a few candidates in Texas.
Bruffy
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:40 pm

Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by Bruffy »

Great advice, thanks! I was planning on giving the owner a call tomorrow to talk a bit more about it and asking about the wing condition was on my list. I'm definitely not sold on this plane and it seems like it might not be worth the effort with it being so far away. I'm definitely learning a lot from this process. I appreciate the help.
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ghostflyer
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Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by ghostflyer »

I would be looking at different models of the Cessna 170 if that’s what you want . The rag covered wing aircraft is nice but it doesn’t like the out doors with its rag wing, and the next one is the 170A which is all metal but has different flaps and a couple of other goodies that are different to its brothers . Many people think the 170B is the pick of the crop . It’s has bigger flaps for inexperanced pilots and a few odd odd things that people go sweaty over. While I have only about 650 hrs in a Cessna 170A and about 20 hours in a 170B , I prefer the 170A. If you can find a 170 with a 180hp Lycoming engine it’s like Xmas every time you fly it. Basically the Cessna 170 aircraft is a FUN aircraft to fly with reasonable costs and parts aren’t that expensive in comparison to other aircraft . You can put the Bride in and a couple of rug rats and the dog and go visit the outlaws for the week end if you are that unlucky to live that distance away.
[translation will be supplied if requested]
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Bruffy, if I was looking for a 170, personally I'd NEVER travel that far except for a under valued pristine example. And then I'd probably drag my feet long enough someone else would buy it and save me the trouble.

This might be a perfectly good plane. It may even be a bargain for someone. But there is a lot stacked against you. This plane does not sound like a plane an inexperienced buyer needs to be considering. Add on the the distance the plane is from you.

And then consider you live in Texas, where there has got to be just as good examples of 170s as this one. Maybe not today but if not there will be soon.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruffy
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:40 pm

Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by Bruffy »

Again, thanks for all the great advice. A 170B with the 180hp would be amazing, it's just little out of my price range. I don't think this 170 is for me, just need to be patient and hold out for one that's closer and more suited to my needs. While we're on the topic, if anyone knows someone who knows someone selling a 170 in the vicinity of Texas, heck, or even a Pacer, I'd love to here about it!
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: 170 Purchase Help and Advice

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

8O The P_ _ _ _ word. That's a dirty word on a Cessna 170 forum. :lol:

No worries though. Before I purchased my first 170, I was first looking for a tail dragger with 4 seats, then a airplane I could afford which meant it would live outside. My wife and I both loved the look of the Pacer, and still do, I also considered a Stinson 108-3. Now the thread is perfect cause we've got the P word and the S word in it. But the only plane of the 3 that seemed practical to keep outside is a 170A or B.

All these planes, the 170, PA20 (or 22/20) and the 108-3 have their good points and bad. There is no perfect airplane. Cons of the Stinson are the engine (Franklin) and fabric. The Stinson though will have the highest useful load. The PA20 cons are it has a narrow gear and short coupled and the original engines were weak on power which is why most have been upgraded. The PA22/20 gear is wider but it is still short coupled. They of course are fabric covered also. The 170 is not a perfect airplane either. We'd all love to have a few more horsepower on take off, heat is non-existent in models till '53. And there is no steering the 170 on the ground without differential braking.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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