Internal Latch Baggage Door Mod

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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hilltop170
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Internal Latch Baggage Door Mod

Post by hilltop170 »

This whole topic was originally in "What did you buy for your 170 today?" and was moved here since it was determined it should be a topic of its own. Thanks to George Horn for moving it.



I went to the Air Salvage of Dallas Christmas sale a couple of weeks ago. Paul Camp and Lucky Leucke are the owners. Paul Camp gave me my Private Pilot checkride in 1971 when he was an FAA Designee and Lucky was the mechanic for Tommy Tigart who owned my 170 before I bought it in 1973. They are both great guys and we have been friends ever since.

At the Christmas sale, I asked Lucky if he had a baggage door that would fit my 170 as I had done many times over the years. Lucky said no, and furthermore the external latches have been so hard to find that they were almost unobtainable or you had to pay Cessna a ransom for a new one. I looked around at the inside sale items and ran into TIC170A member Karl Towle and Tim West who were also looking for bargains. I then went outside to root around thru the outside fuselages and misc large items. It didn’t take long to find a 1954 C-180 fuselaage with an intact internal-latch baggage door!

I went back inside and told Lucky he did in fact have a baggage door that would work. He said, “Oh, that old door doesn’t have an external latch, nobody wants them, that’s why I said I didn’t have one”. I told him I knew it had an internal latch and it would be just fine with me. I would even be glad to come back and cut it out myself so we agreed on a price and I bought it.

It’s almost inconceivable that a C180 would be parted-out these days instead of being rebuilt since they are getting so valuable, but there it was, everything already gone except the stripped-out fuselage and baggage door. There were very few internal-latch baggage doors ever made that would fit the 170 with the 1954-1957 C180, C182, and maybe C172 being the only ones I know of.

Although no 170 ever had a factory baggage door, if they had, they would have been the internal latch style door so it is period-correct and I don’t have to ever worry about repairing or locating an external latch mechanism.

I called Del Lehman at Mountain Airframe in Mena, AR and asked him how much fuselage he wanted to see around the baggage door when we cut it out. Del said if you can give me a foot all-around that would be good. So I took a Sharpie marker and drew out where the cuts needed to be made including around the internal latch structure on the rear door post. It’s a big chunk of fuselage and I hope it will fit inside the 170 for the trip to Mena next April. I can’t wait for Del to work his magic on it.

My best Christmas present so far!

Click/tap on pictures to enlatge
1954 C-180 internal-latch baggage door assembly
1954 C-180 internal-latch baggage door assembly
Baggage door donor airplane, 1954 C-180
Baggage door donor airplane, 1954 C-180
Last edited by hilltop170 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:58 am, edited 9 times in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by GAHorn »

That internal latch is a good method, IMO. No need for an external lockset or matching key mod, etc. The button simply lives in the aft door-frame and releases the latch.

I don't know how it would open from inside, in the event an accident required exiting thru the bag door, however. (not a likely scenario anyway, but the external latch style also has an interior lever to release the door.)

DANG, Richard! That 170A of yours is going to be one of the most-modified 170's around! When are you going to ask Del to put some wing-twist, dihedral and large flaps on it? :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
hilltop170
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by hilltop170 »

Cessna put internal-latch baggage doors on the 195 starting in 1947 so they knew how to do it. I don't know why they didn't put them on the 170 at the same time, maybe to save money, who knows? Ever since I saw your’s George, I was just waiting until I found one with an internal-latch. Never thought I would actually find one, they are like unicorns.

Anyway, George, it's your fault all of us are getting baggage doors to start with, if you hadn't started this, we would have all been content without them. Now, we have to "keep up with the gahorns".

No matter how hard it would be to open from the inside, it would be easier than trying to kick a hole in the side of the plane if it wasn't there.

Del already put the correct wing twist back into my 170 when he did the restoration a few years ago and now it flies hands off, at least until it hits a bump. That previous garage floor wing rebuild done by your buddy in 1952 left a built-in wing-over. The right rudder pedal was COMPLETELY worn out when Del got it.

There is NO WAY I would ever put any dihedral in those wings! Cessna did it right the first time and they knew what they were doing. The 195 doesn't have any dihedral either and I like that look very much, very classic. And now, with the correct twist in the wings, if it had any dihedral, it would be too stable and there wouldn't be anything to keep me awake on long cross-country flights.

I got my instrument rating in it in 1979! I quickly learned not to look down to find anything on the floor or in the charts/plates lest you look up and find yourself in a 45°and increasing bank.

I can already land shorter with the small flaps than I can take off, maybe when I put that O-470 engine in it I'll check on big flaps. Might as well go ahead and put 180 wings on it then as well! :D

Naw, I think I’ll just leave it like it is, “(mostly) not original for the right reasons”! :lol:

That baggage door didn't give up without a fight, though, my shirt got ripped and I left hair and scalp samples on the damaged rear spar carry-thru before it was over, ouch!
Should have been wearing a hardhat
Should have been wearing a hardhat
It was a work shirt and my head is feeling much better now, it was worth it!
It was a work shirt and my head is feeling much better now, it was worth it!
Last edited by hilltop170 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 am, edited 6 times in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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Ryan Smith
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by Ryan Smith »

To me, that style door is much more preferable to the kind with an external latch. Did that have the button and pushrod in the fuselage? How often do those come through his yard?

That is on my list of things to acquire someday...sooner rather than later, hopefully. I don't care if I sit on it for a while. I learned the value of a baggage door on my trip to Louisiana earlier this month!
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c170b53
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by c170b53 »

I know of the Cessna Diamond club but dang Richard you taking this to a new level, that looks like that might have hurt.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
hilltop170
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by hilltop170 »

Ryan Smith wrote:To me, that style door is much more preferable to the kind with an external latch. Did that have the button and pushrod in the fuselage? How often do those come through his yard?

That is on my list of things to acquire someday...sooner rather than later, hopefully. I don't care if I sit on it for a while. I learned the value of a baggage door on my trip to Louisiana earlier this month!
Ryan-
Yes, I got the whole assembly, push button, push rod, and all latch mechanism in one piece with the door. I have never seen an internal-latch door for sale before, they get later model external latch versions every so often but they don't last long. Old C-180s just don't get junked very often, they get rebuilt. You basically have to luck out. The one I got had been there for awhile, I lucked-out.
Inside picture of baggage door push button latch
Inside picture of baggage door push button latch
c170b53 wrote:I know of the Cessna Diamond club but dang Richard you taking this to a new level, that looks like that might have hurt.
Jim-
Yes, I'm a diamond club member also! This should have hurt but with my head being as hard as it is, I barely felt it. Plus, there might have been a little adrenaline involved!
Last edited by hilltop170 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by GAHorn »

I got the door for my mod from Lucky also, but he had it chop-sawed out of a '62 C-172 before I could find my checkbook. He had several 172's in the yard and I picked one out of the crowd. (Interestingly, the inside of the door had Cessna inscriptions indicating it was a 175-door, which makes sense because (I'm told) Cessna put bag doors first in 175's to allow access to the battery that had been relocated in that model. Lucky drop-shipped it directly to Del for me and was the first bag-door Del did on a 170. Lucky is good about providing the traceability of salvage parts too. I"d be curious to privately know for what he sold it to you with you providing the labor.) The bag door really is the BEST mod to do on these 170s, IMO.
That injury hurt ME to look at. Ouch!
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
hilltop170
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Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm

Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by hilltop170 »

It makes sense about the baggage door first being installed on planes with the battery in the aft fuselage, the 195 and 180 both have that. Then, once the utility of them was realized, they all got one.

The going price for baggage doors hasn't changed much in quite a few years, around $500, plus or minus. My total involvement in the removal of the door from the fuselage consisted of drawing the cut lines with a Sharpie marker. Lucky's guys told me to stand back while they expertly cut it out with the chop saw. After they watched me peel open my head they wouldn't let me near it.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by GAHorn »

Yep, that's what I paid for it too. Labor to install it can challenge the wallet, since it involves upholstery/paint/etc., however, it is still worth it! Until it was installed ... I never would have realized how much I appreciated it.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
hilltop170
Posts: 3481
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm

Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by hilltop170 »

I'm hoping for the same results as you, Miles Bowen, and Paul Wood, Del did an outstanding job on all of them.
Last edited by hilltop170 on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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170C
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by 170C »

I think the first 180 (‘53) didn’t have a baggage door. Pretty sure Cessna failed to install them on 170’s & early 172’s as a cost savings. I don’t remember seeing a 170 that had the early 180 baggage door installed . Good find Richard. Guess it’s blood, sweat & tears :D
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2012-2018
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edbooth
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by edbooth »

I put this one in thirty five years ago, before it was fashionable. Door and frame was 75.00. Chuck Brady found it for me. This was part of my practical test for A&P.
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Ed Booth, 170-B and RV-7 Driver
hilltop170
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by hilltop170 »

Ok Ed, I stand corrected, it’s YOUR fault we’re all lusting after baggage doors! :lol: :lol:

And by the way, thank you very much for leading the pack, Cessna should have done it from the beginning.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
bagarre
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Re: What did you buy for your 170 today?

Post by bagarre »

This thread is cool enough, long enough running and diverse enough that it could become it's own forum Discussion section.

For the baggage door, it doesn't look very difficult to convert a newer door to latchless. A few extra parts and a re-skin of the door.
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KG
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Internal Latch Type Bag Door Mod

Post by KG »

I guess I haven't seen enough baggage doors to be well educated... or maybe I haven't paid close attention to them when I see them. So with this "internal latch" door, do you have to reach around inside to open it?
53 170B
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