Skytec Starter Upgrade

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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nippaero
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Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by nippaero »

I'm planning on a few upgrades this fall when I have the engine overhauled. One thing I would like to do is replace the pull starter. I found the Skytec C12ST2. It looks like it is STC'd for my c145-2. Is this the best option?
1952 170B
N8180A s/n 25032
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mit
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by mit »

Just got one installed on an overhaul. Need to figure out how to put in the switch ect.......
Tim
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

As this thread is labeled Skytec Starter UPGRADE, though I've resisted, I just have to say, many people do not consider this or another starter of it's type, an upgrade.

Here is their pitches that apply to our 170s:
1. Ditch your pull-cable and lifeless antique starter. If it has not died already, it's just a matter of time. And aren't you tired of adjusting that pull cable so that the starter energizes only at the very end of the pulling motion? Sky-Tec ST2 starters are proven, durable and provide much quicker rotation for easier, effortless starts. ST2 starters feature no-maintenance, self-resetting kickback protection.

2. The Sky-Tec ST2 starter replaces both the old, antique heavyweight starter AND the continuous running sprag clutch assembly on smaller CMI engines. Reduces weight by 6-8 pounds and eliminates the possibility of the continuously running sprag clutch components failing in the engine oil bath (that's a bad day). The ST2 provides faster starts, lighter weight, reliability & peace of mind.
I've been operating 170s with stock starters for over 15 years. Not once has a stock starter failed for me. Not once has a stock starter not turned a stock motor over at adequate speed to start it when the battery had the energy to do so. Not once beside initial installation, have I adjusted the pull start cable. And of course I have not had a sprague clutch blow apart and litter my accessory case with fragments.

Yes, the clutches can wear out and slip. And if they do explode in your engine, it is a bad day. If your mag bearings wear out and the mag seizes it to can litter your engine with unwanted parts and cylinders crack and connecting rods snap. All bad days. Clutches are available and replaceable and there is even a improved 5 disc design. Why not just do some preventive maintenance and replace the clutch if your concerned. $237 for the clutch vs $586 for just Skytec starter and install kit. Custom installation time additional

I just can't figure out the UPGRADE to putting a new less robust, likely foreign made starter in place of a 60 year proven design that is available and repairable. And the new gadget requires more customization introducing more parts that can fail such as the relay and start button or switch.

OK, the Skytec might be lighter. If you really need to shave 6-8 pounds I suggest you do what I did, lose body fat weight. You'll be much healthier, have more energy to pull that nasty cable start system and more money in your pocket to fly.

Just presenting the other side in case you haven't heard it. :wink:
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
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bagarre
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by bagarre »

"Why not just do some preventive maintenance and replace the clutch if your concerned. $237 for the clutch vs $586 for just Skytec starter and install kit. Custom installation time additional"

This made me chuckle. My experience wasn't the starter but rather the generator.
I wanted to replace the brushes and the front seal. It was leaking oil and the brushes were rather worn. With no time (and not about to do it myself at JYO with the FSDO based on the field) I decided to employ the mechanic on the field for the job.

Parts: Owner supplied. $5 for the seal and $5 for the brushes.
Mechanic charged me $75 to 'research' the parts to verify they were legal.
Mechanic had difficulty removing the woodruff key so it 'took a little more time'.
Mechanic had to order a new woodruff key.
Final bill to install $10 worth of parts in my 50 year old generator was $475.00
8O

I could have bought a new generator for less! Mechanic's excuse, "Airplanes are expensive".

At today's rates, it's cheaper to replace parts like starters, generators, mags than have any work done to them.

"$237 for the clutch vs $586 for just Skytec"

So, for $350 I can have a brand new starter vs a 50 year old boat anchor with a new clutch?
How many hours labor will that clutch cost me vs swapping out the starter?
How many things might go wrong when they go to pull out that 50 year old clutch that might jack the labor cost sky high?

I'll take the new starter, thank you.
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blueldr
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by blueldr »

Why didn't you simply install a new oil seal in your old starter? They only cost a couple of bucks and you don't have to grind off the part in the engine risking metal contamination in the guts of the engine.
BL
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cessna170bdriver
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by cessna170bdriver »

Aryana wrote:I've been happy with mine over the past 5 years. Hardest part is cutting off the shaft inside the acc case. If you're splitting the cases you can just omit the part and the Sky Tec will just slide right in.
I'm pretty sure you still need to cut off the shaft and install the base back between the case halves.

I too got tired of the oil leaks and went with a B&C. It just looks more robust than the Skytec IMHO, at least it did in 2006 when I bought mine.

As far as the original starter being "adequate"', that's probably true, but it just seems to me that if my B&C will turn the engine at 300 RPM on the same battery that lets the original starter turn the engine 100 RPM, then the B&C should turn the engine 100 RPM on a battery that wouldn't let an original starter turn the engine at all.
Last edited by cessna170bdriver on Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Miles

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cessna170bdriver
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by cessna170bdriver »

Aryana wrote:Note #2 on sheet 1 of the below link, alternate installation - you can omit installation of the starter pinon shaft, PN 23487 at engine overhaul:

http://www.skytecair.com/images/PDF/ST2_71200%20IR.pdf
Thanks Arash, I don't recall such a note in the B&C instructions. There's a locator pin in the case for that shaft that I'd want removed too, to preclude the possibility of it getting loose in the engine.
Miles

“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
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170C
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by 170C »

Well I am glad Miles put his B&C starter on several years ago because he made me a nice deal on his old Delco-Remy! I put his on my engine while I ordered vrs repair parts for the one that came on my engine. Now I have a spare. I have never had any real issues with the D-R starter other than the contact part did go out one time yrs ago. I find that the pull cable starter works just fine if you get the cable installed properly. Yea, the clutch can be an issue. I replaced two since buying my plane in 1989. The last one was what Niagara calls their 5 roller model. Fortunately it has not given me any trouble in several hundred hours. The only issue I have is that I can never stop the pinion seal from leaking. I even changed the housing one time plus putting in a new seal and it lasted for a short time, then began to drip again :cry:

And yes, those Sky-Tec starters do have a foreign automobile starter motor, but since the mfg makes literally thousands of them a year, why reinvent the wheel. Go with a proven product.
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GAHorn
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by GAHorn »

cessna170bdriver wrote:[....
As far as the original starter being "adequate"', that's probably true, but it just seems to me that if my B&C will turn the engine at 300 RPM on the same battery that lets the original starter turn the engine 100 RPM, then the B&C should turn the engine 100 RPM on a battery that wouldn't let an original starter turn the engine at all.
That depends. The difference is in the Amps required to operate the starter. A battery that will still operate an original healthy starter may be unlikely to operate the lightweight unit at all if the faster rpm of the lightweight is due to increased electrical consumption. (On the other hand, the permanent-magnet lightweight might actually use less current, in which case your supposition might be true.)

I am not willing to spend the several hundred dollars to watch my prop turn faster upon initial start. I completely overhauled (new bearings/bushings, brushes, seals, and armature/field insulation) for less than $45. I'm confident it'll go another engine-lifetime, and I've got 60+ years of data to support that belief. The lightweight starters are just as much trouble when they screw up, according to the calls I get on them, and two engines have been trashed that I know of when they backfired during start due to the lightweight starter engagement.

Most owner/operators I've dealt with on issues of starter/generator so-called "upgrades" have been convinced to do so because of the unfamiliarity of modern "parts-replacers" with repairman certificates. They replace parts rather than repair problems.

In my opinion, this is another one of those stories where someone spends money on their machine and they are reluctant to consider it may have been wasteful. (Sorta like the folding step-stool I used once or twice, only to find it missing immediately after Ol'Gar came on a visit.... only to find it completely modified for a totally different purpose sitting on his front porch as a flower pot-holder. I never told Jamie it didn't do the job as well as it represented because that'd make me look the fool for spending money on it. Instead, it looks like it must have been a valuable item since it was STOLEN BY A "FRIEND".) :mrgreen:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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GAHorn
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by GAHorn »

170C wrote:Well I am glad Miles put his B&C starter on several years ago because he made me a nice deal on his old Delco-Remy! I put his on my engine while I ordered vrs repair parts for the one that came on my engine. Now I have a spare. I have never had any real issues with the D-R starter other than the contact part did go out one time yrs ago. I find that the pull cable starter works just fine if you get the cable installed properly.....
Well, THERE YOU GO!
...if Frank doesn't have one of the new-fangled foreign lightweight starter motors on HIS airplane (despite the fact that he directly worked for the Lightweight-Starter folks in their production facility...).... then I DON'T NEED TO SAY ANYTHING MORE! :lol: :lol: :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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GAHorn
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by GAHorn »

Aryana wrote:I definitely fall into the "parts replacer" camp! :mrgreen:
In the case of the owner doing the conversion, it's a slightly different matter, IMO. It's the "professional" who holds himself out to the public and finds it more profitable to sell an expensive conversion to litewt starters and alternators rather than take the chance they can't fix the owners problem because the "repairman" doesn't know what he's doing!
It's a lot more profitable to sell a $700-$1,000 conversion than it is to make a $175 overhaul/exchange ...(or worse!, to not know how to use a paperclip to re-polarize a genny or ground out a generator-field to isolate a regulator.) :evil:

That latter type of "repairman" is the kind of guy that makes flying so expensive that many cannot participate.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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170C
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by 170C »

For the record, I did not obtain a Sky-Tec starter while I had the opportunity, but it wasn't due to my reluctance to utilize the product. I just really didn't want to do the pinion cutoff unless it was/is necessary. Sky-Tec makes a good product for those needing or wanting a lighter weight starter than the old GM product. They have a good warranty as well. However, since being purchased by Hartzell and production transferring to Alabama next year, who knows.
I have to say that I enjoyed my time with Sky-Tec. A great bunch of guys & gals to work with and I learned a lot about a machine shop and how things like starters/alternators are made.
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by GAHorn »

I certainly hope Frank knows I was only ribbing him.

Onward in this conversation, SkyTec did have developmental problems with their starters which did not plague the B&C units. It had to do with the starter releasing after engine-start and possible engine damage. They have redesigned their unit to reduce that problem.
The SkyTec rep promised our Assoc'n a unit for the Tehachapi convention auction, but failed to come thru. I rec'd a follow-up voice mail apologizing and promising to make up for it, but that has also not happened.
In fairness, the B&C folks have not been solicited by convention-hosts, to my knowledge.
I'll make contact with both for next year's convention and see what happens.

The Niagara folks provided one of their 5-roller starter clutches (for original Delco-Remy starters) and it was raffled/auctioned at Tehachapi. I have one of those clutches now for 700+hours and it's done just fine. (I also have a spare OEM starter/clutch I bought for $50, so I doubt I'm a candidate for departing from the ORIGINAL! :D

AS for leaking clutch-shafts... there is an excellent article on which oil seal applies. There were several versions for various mod-status clutch housings. I'll attempt to revisit this issue in an upcoming News Article.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
flyboy122
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by flyboy122 »

I bought a Skytec for my previous airplane and after a few months it gave me some engagement problems. They replaced it quickly with no fuss and it gave me no trouble for years afterward. I installed a B&C we had laying around in the hanger on my 170. When I sent it in to B&C for an inspection the bill came to 3x what they quoted. When I questioned it the response was, "Uh-oh...Well, you are going to get a good deal." and they honored the original quote. Point being I would gladly buy another product from either company.

DEM
hilltop170
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Re: Skytec Starter Upgrade

Post by hilltop170 »

No problems with SkyTec starter in 300+hours. It was installed in 2006 so I guess they had their issues solved by then.
Richard Pulley
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1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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